The real reason HW is so bad is simple…

[I_IZ_BACK]

There are not very many men on this planet who, when in athletic competition shape, cannot cut down to 205 lbs. Even most professional basketball, baseball, and football players could do that.

So you are left with 3 groups of people fighting at HW:

1.) The 1% of the population who truly can’t get to 205, even when in shape and cutting 25 lbs of water.

2.) LHWs who don’t feel like weight cutting because they are lazy.

3.) Fat people who won’t diet and train hard.

You’ll never have a talented division made of these men. 2 of the 3 groups are there out of laziness, and the other is so small that there just won’t be many talented individuals in it.

I tend to agree but there are some exceptions. Mirko Cro Cop was like 211 - 215 in his first couple of fights. He could make 205 easily but according to him, he only wanted to fight at HW because it's the most powerfull division you can fight in. And I wouldn't classify Mirko as a lazy LHW.

 

[HeffDoesWant]

Also, HWs have fewer training partners of equal size and almost none who are bigger.

When sparring guys bigger than you, you can't just power through things while your opponent can.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

There are not very many men on this planet who, when in athletic competition shape, cannot cut down to 205 lbs. Even most professional basketball, baseball, and football players could do that.

So you are left with 3 groups of people fighting at HW:

1.) The 1% of the population who truly can’t get to 205, even when in shape and cutting 25 lbs of water.

2.) LHWs who don’t feel like weight cutting because they are lazy.

3.) Fat people who won’t diet and train hard.

You’ll never have a talented division made of these men. 2 of the 3 groups are there out of laziness, and the other is so small that there just won’t be many talented individuals in it.

I would say though that MMA is in quite a unique situation compare to most sports. Typically the strength of your talent pool depends on the number of people involved, so HW boxing for example the number of guys training is likely to determin how many great fighters you have at any one time. In MMA though your basically bringing in talent from other sports much of the time so the number of people involved in MMA itself won't automatically tell you the talent level.

Back in the day HW was one of the best divisions in the sport because it focused on bringing in talent like that earlier, very actively went out and signed up a lot of guys from other sports. More recently the UFC tend to be "let the talent come to us" because it saves money but it also hurts the higher weight classes especially.

 

[Zanderlini]

There's not a lot of big guys in MMA gyms. A fit 160-200lb is about where a good 80percent of dudes are at.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

I agree theres a lot of potential HW talent in rugby.

The crazy thing is rugby genuinely is a criminally underpaid sport. Its old, its got a large talent pool, tons of infrastructure in a bunch of different countries around the world, a high level of professionalism and is full of "A level athletes", and yet even at the higher levels most guys are making less per season than main event UFC fighters make in a single fight, and unlike this drama with MMA pay, there isnt even any uproar about it.

It goes to show that people dont necessarily choose to play a sport based on how much it (potentially) pays too. Its more based on cultural reasons, exposure, geography, infrastructure to produce players etc etc.

i didn't really think about that, but i think you're 100% right about the infrastructure part. there's a clear path to becoming a professional rugby player, the same as all the other sports. i think if MMA had something like that it would also change the game for the sport. and that's a really good point about how they're very underpaid compared to other major sports and nobody seems to care.

i think a lot of that has to do with how young rugby is as a professional sport. didn't it only become professional in like the 90s? i feel like people still see it as an honor to rep your club/city/country, instead of like how other athletes look at their sport like an actual job.

 

[mmathurbator]

its a combo of op and the first post. those two are both accurate. hw is the weakest division. if ngannou keeps improving then good luck to the rest of the division. (if gane doesnt beat him first).

 

[M.U.S.C.L.E.]

There are not very many men on this planet who, when in athletic competition shape, cannot cut down to 205 lbs. Even most professional basketball, baseball, and football players could do that.

So you are left with 3 groups of people fighting at HW:

1.) The 1% of the population who truly can’t get to 205, even when in shape and cutting 25 lbs of water.

2.) LHWs who don’t feel like weight cutting because they are lazy.

3.) Fat people who won’t diet and train hard.

You’ll never have a talented division made of these men. 2 of the 3 groups are there out of laziness, and the other is so small that there just won’t be many talented individuals in it.

You obviously never played real sports. I remember playing against Elton Brand in college. Dude was 260 lbs with a six pack. Ron Artest was 250 lbs with a six pack. In way better shape than any MMA fighter.
Do you even watch UFC, bro? Curtis Blaydes is 260 lbs and lean.

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

the real reason is because rugby exists. people say NFL, but lots of those guys are like sumo wrestlers, they purposely eat themselves to that size. while in rugby you have to maintain a certain level of fitness because the game isn't played in 30 sec increments the way the NFL is.

so most rugby players are huge and yet still maintain a good level of fitness. these are the real HWs.

Cardio is simply training. All these big NFL guys train for 30 second burst because that's all that's required that doesn't mean they can't have better cardio for fighting they just don't need to.

Soccer players have good running/leg cardio but you put a soccer player in a wrestling match and their upper body and grip will be trash after 30 seconds.

The point still remains that nobody at a large weight except maybe heavyweight wrestlers ate getting into MMA. You had gable steveson right there to be signed as a prospect and said no

 

[D 1 Wrestler]

You obviously never played real sports. I remember playing against Elton Brand in college. Dude was 260 lbs with a six pack. Ron Artest was 250 lbs with a six pack. In way better shape than any MMA fighter.
Do you even watch UFC, bro? Curtis Blaydes is 260 lbs and lean.

Yea people don't realize how tall NBA players are, Steph curry looks tiny on court and is basically Jon Jones size but slightly leaner

 

[mjfan23]

Amateur. Do you even lift bro?

Not yet, it will stop my growth I heard. Once I am 7’4 or close to it I will start lifting

 

[spinup]

i didn't really think about that, but i think you're 100% right about the infrastructure part. there's a clear path to becoming a professional rugby player, the same as all the other sports. i think if MMA had something like that it would also change the game for the sport. and that's a really good point about how they're very underpaid compared to other major sports and nobody seems to care.

i think a lot of that has to do with how young rugby is as a professional sport. didn't it only become professional in like the 90s? i feel like people still see it as an honor to rep your club/city/country, instead of like how other athletes look at their sport like an actual job.

Another aspect is that it is very accessible to compete in amateur rugby at any age.
Competing in hard contact combat sports is much more complicated, especially for kids and teenagers.

 

[Taric]

all those are true, that being said the HW MMA champion of the world is without a doubt the most dangerous dude there is in a fight. always has been

I dunno, I'd hazard a guess that any one of those dozens of badass 125kg Russian freestyle wrestlers could take Ngannou to the ground at will.

 

[Taric]

the real reason is because rugby exists. people say NFL, but lots of those guys are like sumo wrestlers, they purposely eat themselves to that size. while in rugby you have to maintain a certain level of fitness because the game isn't played in 30 sec increments the way the NFL is.

so most rugby players are huge and yet still maintain a good level of fitness. these are the real HWs.

The Vince Wilfork's of the world are a dying breed.

The NFL elite look like Aaron Donald now.

 

[ferrisjso]

There are not very many men on this planet who, when in athletic competition shape, cannot cut down to 205 lbs. Even most professional basketball, baseball, and football players could do that.

So you are left with 3 groups of people fighting at HW:

1.) The 1% of the population who truly can’t get to 205, even when in shape and cutting 25 lbs of water.

2.) LHWs who don’t feel like weight cutting because they are lazy.

3.) Fat people who won’t diet and train hard.

You’ll never have a talented division made of these men. 2 of the 3 groups are there out of laziness, and the other is so small that there just won’t be many talented individuals in it.

If MMA was as financially lucrative as boxing was in the early to mid 20th century it's been proven you can get a talented division made up of these men. Will that ever happen? Probably not but the humans exist to make it a reality because it happened with a population that was smaller on average than today's.

 

[Kinku]

Think we need to mention, Instagram and social media fitness training. Probably bigger guys showing off and making money off social media easier than fighting

 

[GOATtalks]

The majority of large athletes in America are football players and basketball players. That's where the money and scholarships are, so that's where those athletes end up staying.

Nobody is going to start training MMA in middle school so they can earn shit money while getting punched in the mouth. The smart athletes stay away from MMA. There is no real future in it unless you're one of the very few who make it to the top of the MMA world.

True and maybe that’s the reason heavier weight classes are dominated by no Americans.

HW: Francis and Gane are as big and as athletic as you can get, Volkov, Jairzinho, Aspinall, Pavlovich, Romanov are all great talents from abroad.

LHW: Jan, Glover, Jiri, Rakic, Volkan, Santos, Ankalaev, Craig, Walker etc. Basically all of the best guys are non Americans.

Even MW: Izzy, Whittaker, Costa, Vettori, Hermansson, Till. Top talent doesn’t come from USA.

USA isn’t the whole world, it’s actually only 4,25% of world population. MMA is a global sport and the talent comes from all around the world.

HW isn’t weak, it’s a false narrative pushed by old PRIDE farts. There’s a reason guys cut so much weight to fight at LHW or MW.

 

[Pancake Sprawl]

Cardio is simply training. All these big NFL guys train for 30 second burst because that's all that's required that doesn't mean they can't have better cardio for fighting they just don't need to.

Soccer players have good running/leg cardio but you put a soccer player in a wrestling match and their upper body and grip will be trash after 30 seconds.

The point still remains that nobody at a large weight except maybe heavyweight wrestlers ate getting into MMA. You had gable steveson right there to be signed as a prospect and said no

Greg Hardy doesn't have better cardio and he's had years to train it. lots of these NFL guys would not be the behemoths they are if they did. on the flip side, rugby players train cardio already and are still units.

 

[Zangief HW GOAT]

True and maybe that’s the reason heavier weight classes are dominated by no Americans.

HW: Francis and Gane are as big and as athletic as you can get, Volkov, Jairzinho, Aspinall, Pavlovich, Romanov are all great talents from abroad.

LHW: Jan, Glover, Jiri, Rakic, Volkan, Santos, Ankalaev, Craig, Walker etc. Basically all of the best guys are non Americans.

Even MW: Izzy, Whittaker, Costa, Vettori, Hermansson, Till. Top talent doesn’t come from USA.

USA isn’t the whole world, it’s actually only 4,25% of world population. MMA is a global sport and the talent comes from all around the world.

HW isn’t weak, it’s a false narrative pushed by old PRIDE farts. There’s a reason guys cut so much weight to fight at LHW or MW.

While there's a hint of truth, the whole "it's not dominated by AMERICA it's because we're focused in other things" is mostly bulltshit.
It's just that other countries are catching up to a sport that was mostly US, Brazil and Japan until a few years ago.

 

[GOATtalks]

While there's a hint of truth, the whole "it's not dominated by AMERICA it's because we're focused in other things" is mostly bulltshit.
It's just that other countries are catching up to a sport that was mostly US, Brazil and Japan until a few years ago.

That wasn’t even my point. What I meant is, the fact HW suck in US, doesn’t mean they suck elsewhere

 

[pankrat]

I disagree though, I think DC was a better LHW. If he had the discipline to stay around fight weight at LHW and if Jon Jones didn’t exist, he’d go down in history as the best 205er ever. His strength and wrestling were huge at LHW and I don’t see any LHW besides Jones, ever being able to beat a prime Cormier @205.

Gustafsson arguably did man...

Probably he would have had a harder time dealing with HW Cormier

 

[pankrat]

I would say though that MMA is in quite a unique situation compare to most sports. Typically the strength of your talent pool depends on the number of people involved, so HW boxing for example the number of guys training is likely to determin how many great fighters you have at any one time. In MMA though your basically bringing in talent from other sports much of the time so the number of people involved in MMA itself won't automatically tell you the talent level.

Back in the day HW was one of the best divisions in the sport because it focused on bringing in talent like that earlier, very actively went out and signed up a lot of guys from other sports. More recently the UFC tend to be "let the talent come to us" because it saves money but it also hurts the higher weight classes especially.

Maybe but if it depends on the number of people involved, I don't think you can say the talent pool in K1 was that strong, yet you give massive amounts of credit to the talent picked up from K1 to MMA.
Bob Sapp didn't help the case neither