the problem w/mma strikers -

[devante]

when discussing mma guys and their ability to box, two guys, jens pulver and nick diaz often have commented that the biggest problem mma guys have is twofold; one they can't keep their mouths shut when regarding what works or will work in mma, secondly mma guys spend too much time sparring/boxing other mma guys instead of boxers.


the best mma guys, or most effective strikers in mma are the guys who make it a point to train w/pure strikers; more importantly they make it a point to spar pure striking, this is where the gap comes in. MMa guys train w/legit pad holders and coaches, etc; but they don't CONSISTENTLY put in the time w/pure strikers, im not even talking about state national international world class level strikers, just guys who really have the b/g experience and skills as strikers. Not guys who just have very good ability or guys who have a base level familiarity w/striking.

mma guys consistently work w/pure grapplers (JUDOKA SAMBOIST CATCHWRESTLERS WRESTLERS BRAZILLIAN JIU JITSU STYLIST); whether it be average guys, above average, good, very good, superior or incredible grapplers, they develop a solid comprehension of how to effectively apply offense, use defense and effectively use either/both as a way to counter an opp. ALL BECAUSE THEY COMMIT TO HARD INTENSE GRAPPLING; by sparring you learn how to be functional, you learn how to mix things up, set things up, defend, counter and attack thing...esp when things aren't perfect.


the mma guys don't consistently spar w/strikers- pulver has made repeated comments towards it back when he was wMFS, diaz has constantly called out mma guys on it, an woodley commented on how guys need to go work w/legit boxers to develop themselves and that alot of guys still don't do it.

Its not enough to make one or two trips to thailand or a boxing gym or whatever; for you to really show that growth and awareness, you have to spend extensive time w/strikers. Look at the clip fur tuf this season when they train w/gsp's kickboxing trainer, some of those cats had no idea what to do when dealing w/a highlevel PURE striker. Rarely do i see guys look that clueless on the ground, they might be outclassed; they don't look incompetent or helpless.

alot of guys look good on the bag or shadowboxing or on the pads; but can't apply it to the cage, an to me part of it is all the things you have to cover..I still think alot of it come from the lack of sparring.

all the guys who spend the time working w/pure strikers always show soo much more effectiveness standing, an often show the most ability to adjust or apply tech in regards to the opp and situation they are facing.

thoughts opinions

 

[jlagman]

At the risk of sounding like I agree with dudes who think Nick Diaz is awesome because he has sparred with Andre Ward (who are also implying that their skill levels and experience are somehow comparable), I have to say, I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. I find that grapplers in MMA still have overblown superiority complexes about their approach to fighting. Nick Diaz may not have the prettiest technique, but I do agree that he's put enough time in to learn how to make his natural abilities and advantages work for him, which can be a valid way to approach something even as technical as boxing. At the very least, the pure striker will generally have fundamentals in their own art, which other MMA participants may not necessarily have.

 

[Connoisseur]

I think it's important to spar in different disciplines as well as in MMA. But more specifically, I think guys should spar which they seek to improve or focus on in their upcoming fight, to supplement their MMA training.

For example, in his upcoming fight with Frank Edgar, Gray is going to want to keep his wrestling as sharp as possible (because that's what he had success with against Frank the 1'st time around), but he's also going to want to improve on his boxing and his top jiu jitsu game. To do this, aside from training integrated MMA techniques and sparring, he's going to want to do boxing rules sparring, straight wrestling, and then tie them together.

 

[fightingrabbit]

lol Well i think you're absolutely right.. if you're sparring hands only with garbage fist fighters, Your hands are generally going to suck. Actually i think it mostly boils down to more of an intense workout for most of them, rather than a learning experience.

Why any MMA fighter would not strive to learn to box is beyond me. Just getting adept at the fundamentals would increase your ring/cage ability twofold. An example would be Anderson Silva vs Chris Leben. Silva, who is merely an E class professional schooled the shit out of Leben with simple straight punches.

It was a prime example of knowledgeable straight punches beating the run of the mill, looping MMA haymaker. Just Silva having that LITTLE bit of boxing skill and smarts over Leben made exponential difference in the beating he applied with his fists. And i say EXPONENTIAL! It was merely a sparring session for Silva.

I think that fight said alot about how absolutely horrific the general skill level is that lots of MMA guys have with their hands. Its almost sad, Put Leben in with Anderson 10 times, and he would get his face boxed in all 10 times with the same results. And im not nuthugging Silva, im just trying to make a point.

 

[barnowl]

lol Well i think you're absolutely right.. if you're sparring hands only with garbage fist fighters, Your hands are generally going to suck. Actually i think it mostly boils down to more of an intense workout for most of them, rather than a learning experience.

Why any MMA fighter would not strive to learn to box is beyond me. Just getting adept at the fundamentals would increase your ring/cage ability twofold. An example would be Anderson Silva vs Chris Leben. Silva, who is merely an E class professional schooled the shit out of Leben with simple straight punches.

It was a prime example of knowledgeable straight punches beating the run of the mill, looping MMA haymaker. Just Silva having that LITTLE bit of boxing skill and smarts over Leben made exponential difference in the beating he applied with his fists. And i say EXPONENTIAL! It was merely a sparring session for Silva.

I think that fight said alot about how absolutely horrific the general skill level is that lots of MMA guys have with their hands. Its almost sad, Put Leben in with Anderson 10 times, and he would get his face boxed in all 10 times with the same results. And im not nuthugging Silva, im just trying to make a point.

Pretty much have to agree with you. I have gotten to work a few MMA fighters and a regional MMA champ and universally there basic stand up was painful to watch. No defense, wide open guards, an only a minimum of attacking skill.

 

[chino0503]

the problem with mma fighters is that they dont wanna spar boxing with good boxers.

in order to be good at boxing you gotta train boxing separate as they do with wrestling, bjj and muay thai. for some reason why mma fighters dont fell the need to train boxing separately and correctly.

nick diaz is a example of a mma fighter who spars with some of the best boxers... and it showed in his performance when he totally dismantled kj noons.

my point is.... mma fighters roll bjj with best, they wrestle with the best... WHY CANT THEY TRAIN AND SPAR BOXING WITH THE BEST?

 

[Murlik]

my point is.... mma fighters roll bjj with best, they wrestle with the best... WHY CANT THEY TRAIN AND SPAR BOXING WITH THE BEST?

Because it hurts lol.

 

[barnowl]

Because it hurts lol.

I have actually been told that guys that want to do pro MMA. It made me laugh.

 

[Frode Falch]

my point is.... mma fighters roll bjj with best, they wrestle with the best... WHY CANT THEY TRAIN AND SPAR BOXING WITH THE BEST?

Thiago Alves spars with Melvin Manhoef
GSP spars with Jerome Lebanner, and pro boxers
Anderson Silva has sparred at Freddys gym
Cung Le has sparred with alot of pure strikers
Cro Cop has sparred with alot of pure strikers

I could go on..

 

[Murlik]

Thiago Alves spars with Melvin Manhoef
GSP spars with Jerome Lebanner, and pro boxers
Anderson Silva has sparred at Freddys gym
Cung Le has sparred with alot of pure strikers
Cro Cop has sparred with alot of pure strikers

I could go on..

You kinda made the TS's point. All those guys have striking skill that exceeds that of the average MMA pro.

 

[jlagman]

Anyone remember a few years ago when people would spout some bullshit like, "MMA striking is real striking" when someone posted a thread, asking a question like this? I remember it clearly, it contained the same kind of idiots who thought that the jab was useless and that you wouldn't have enough time to "pepper" your opponent with one before getting taken down and submitted.

 

[Frode Falch]

i dont remember that.. but i remember alot of guys talking shit about striking in mma, sounding like someone who think mma fighters should be as sharp in striking as pure boxer and kickboxers.. while still being able to train in all areas of MMA..

 

[jlagman]

Shit, you got me brah, I'll remember to lower my expectations accordingly the next time I watch MMA.

 

[Murlik]

i dont remember that.. but i remember alot of guys talking shit about striking in mma, sounding like someone who think mma fighters should be as sharp in striking as pure boxer and kickboxers.. while still being able to train in all areas of MMA..

Thank you for doing that sounding less argumenative than I would have. It's not like he's wrong on alot of his points but his message is so consistent that everytime I see him post it's like "oh yeah THIS GUY"

 

[Frode Falch]

well you cant expect a mma-fighter to be as skilled in one part of fighting (striking) as a guy who train only that part of striking.. There is a limit to how much a human body can train. And a professional athlete allready train to his limit. The boxer and kickboxer has less weapons. Thats why their skills are much more polished and fine tuned

Any man who dont know this.. and uses it to talk down on the best mma-fighter are either dumb or just looking for something to talk shit about.. Either way, it make that person sound quite dumb.. So its a lose lose situation for that guy..

And there is quite a few persons like that on this board.

 

[chino0503]

Thiago Alves spars with Melvin Manhoef
GSP spars with Jerome Lebanner, and pro boxers
Anderson Silva has sparred at Freddys gym
Cung Le has sparred with alot of pure strikers
Cro Cop has sparred with alot of pure strikers

I could go on..

well i was talking about boxing. nick diaz is probably one of the only mma fighters that spar regularly with a TOP LEVEL boxer like andre ward. ward isnt just an A class boxer.... he's an A+ boxer.

 

[Da_Rev_Ong]

well you cant expect a mma-fighter to be as skilled in one part of fighting (striking) as a guy who train only that part of striking.. There is a limit to how much a human body can train. And a professional athlete allready train to his limit. The boxer and kickboxer has less weapons. Thats why their skills are much more polished and fine tuned

Any man who dont know this.. and uses it to talk down on the best mma-fighter are either dumb or just looking for something to talk shit about.. Either way, it make that person sound quite dumb.. So its a lose lose situation for that guy..

And there is quite a few persons like that on this board.

In that case, wouldn't it be in their best interest to spend their time training with the best stand-up trainers/fighters available? I understand that their time is short due to the breadth of skills that they are trying to nurture, but if you look at the trend, it seems that the level of training on their itinerary reads something like:

Conditioning = World Class
Ju Jitsu/Submissions = World Class
Wrestling = World Class
Striking = Amateur/??? Class

It doesn't make sense not to get the best training for your time/money unless there is some other issue (or stigma) that keeps many MMA fighters from doing so. It would be a shame not to be able to find at least a solid amateur level boxing coach (and sparring partners) in the states or any 1st World country. Doesn't mean you're going to only train Boxing for X number of weeks because you are there with them. I think it would be better to bring the level of striking trainnig up to par with the rest of their regular training.

 

[devante]

Thiago Alves spars with Melvin Manhoef
GSP spars with Jerome Lebanner, and pro boxers
Anderson Silva has sparred at Freddys gym
Cung Le has sparred with alot of pure strikers
Cro Cop has sparred with alot of pure strikers

I could go on..

my point exactly the guys w/the best striking in mma make it a point to train excessively w/pure strikers; they take their lumps and as a result get alot better, it seems like alot of mma guys don't want to take theirs and the result is standup which isnt good and standup that doesn't progress.

you see much more growth in grappling wrestling in mma, but guys striking is always so so; i mean you can literally tell what guys work on it and what guys don't cus there is such a gap between the guys who are just good and the rest of the mma fighters.

you don't see that gap in grappling/wrestling, unless your talking world class; but for the most part the skill level in grappling is good and consistent, you see guys complimented by far superior grapplers/wrestling on their grappling/wrestling.

guys like kenny florian-yves edwards-gsp-anderson silva-lyoto machida-donald cerrone-chris horodecki- are guys w/out wrestling or grappling b/g (in some cases) and they are now guys who are very effective in those realms; the same can't often be said in reverse regarding striking, but its because these guys took their lumps getting handled and outclassed..now they can handle themselves in those two areas.

guys are ok w/being outwrestled and submitted; but their ego won't let them get handled by a boxer or striker..an all the guys who can deal w/that are the guys w/the better striking.

brandon vera
kenny florian
gsp
nick/nate diaz
cung le
anderson silva
kj noons
lyoto machida
cain velasquez
george soitoropolus
donald cerrone
yves edwards

you don't have to turn into a super striker; but if striking is your area of weakness, how the hell do you NOT address it, if your truly trying to be an effective-balanced mma fighter and its obvious most of these guys don't work it enough..i.e. spar.

 

[chino0503]

my point exactly the guys w/the best striking in mma make it a point to train excessively w/pure strikers; they take their lumps and as a result get alot better, it seems like alot of mma guys don't want to take theirs and the result is standup which isnt good and standup that doesn't progress.

you see much more growth in grappling wrestling in mma, but guys striking is always so so; i mean you can literally tell what guys work on it and what guys don't cus there is such a gap between the guys who are just good and the rest of the mma fighters.

you don't see that gap in grappling/wrestling, unless your talking world class; but for the most part the skill level in grappling is good and consistent, you see guys complimented by far superior grapplers/wrestling on their grappling/wrestling.

guys like kenny florian-yves edwards-gsp-anderson silva-lyoto machida-donald cerrone-chris horodecki- are guys w/out wrestling or grappling b/g (in some cases) and they are now guys who are very effective in those realms; the same can't often be said in reverse regarding striking, but its because these guys took their lumps getting handled and outclassed..now they can handle themselves in those two areas.

guys are ok w/being outwrestled and submitted; but their ego won't let them get handled by a boxer or striker..an all the guys who can deal w/that are the guys w/the better striking.

brandon vera
kenny florian
gsp
nick/nate diaz
cung le
anderson silva
kj noons
lyoto machida
cain velasquez
george soitoropolus
donald cerrone
yves edwards

you don't have to turn into a super striker; but if striking is your area of weakness, how the hell do you NOT address it, if your truly trying to be an effective-balanced mma fighter and its obvious most of these guys don't work it enough..i.e. spar.

like someone said earlier... IT HURTS!! haha and it hurts even more to spar with a world class boxer/muay thai fighter.

 

[thirteen]

sounding like someone who think mma fighters should be as sharp in striking as pure boxer and kickboxers.. while still being able to train in all areas of MMA..

Imo Mixed Martial Arts indicates there's always gonna be a compromise somewhere.