The Oblique Kick and Low Side Kick Counter

[ConcreteCracker]

So ofcourse I'm not too sure to post any thread to keep from looking like a moron. This keyboard warrior has the answers opposed to an M.M.A expert or Champion having difficulty defending and or countering this attack?

Just an opinion of mine so I bare with me please.

So the Oblique Kick, sort of hard to defend and almost impossible to find a counter, seems spontaneous, quick and keeps you from moving forward.

Misconception that It's only used as a defensive move opposed to walking someone down with it offensive and aggressively.

Lies that checking it would hurt the Oblique Kicker.

You can step back. But If they walk you down. What if you have no more space to step back?

Now I want an answer, not just a defense but to punish them for throwing it, like checking a low roundhouse.

Heres what I have. The Oblique Kick and the Low Side Kick (Orthodox) have something in comon, they can't have the same punishment as a Low Roundhouse ofcourse not having shin to knee collision being that the Kicker is using the sole of the foot to hit your thigh, knee or shin. To me it's like the Jab and Straight with the legs. Low Side Kick = Jab, Oblique Kick = Straight. But they have something else in comon, the toes are pointed west from the defending point of view

I've noticed the Savate way of defending is to bring your knee up (Northeast) (Orthodox). I said "Hey, that's almost the same way a Muay Thai/ Modern Kickboxer checks a Lead Low Roundhouse"




So what if you bring your knee towards your rear elbow (Getting your lead knee passed the Kickers heel) and immediately stomping the ground with your lead leg and returning with a Lead Body Straight or a Rear Body Cross? Same may apply with your own Lead Low Side Kick Or Rear Low Roundhouse.




Just an opinion of mine

I have also though about taking a backstep form Orthodox to Southpaw and throwing a low Straight to the body or even the leg. This seems and may feel much more complicated and out of rhythm though.

 

[ConcreteCracker]

Give your honest reply/opinions

Thanks Guys

 

[Paolo Delutis]

Hey, good question..

So from a MMA standpoint this kick is become more common thanks to JBJ (Jon bones Jones)..ive always questioned its effectivness outside of when its thrown at the knee level though..shin level version or hip level version i believe are not as effective or sinister as when thrown at the knee, and there much more effective strikes to throw at these targets then a low turning side kick..

With that being said back to just a kickboxing /Muay thai or free form stand up only type fight, i believe the counter is similar to something you eluded to above the jab and straight reference..you need to break your center line fully ( laterial movement) to avoid the strike.Vertical movment such as North or south will not work with this strike just like a jab and straight..moving forward at the wrong time ull move into the strike, moving straight back can get you pinned down agaisnt the ropes/wall or lock your knee damaging it further

The oblique kick is a hard strike to mask and majority of the time you can see when your opponent is going to throw it as its usually thrown alone and rarely behind or after another strike.. As the set up reflects that of its more powerful cousins the push kick and upper side kick.



Notice how silva has to lift his leg up and loaded it ( chamber the kick) before releasing the kick.. This is your que to move defensively here his opponent chooses to try and react and move back and is too slow and helps hyper extend his own knee..vertical movement is the wrong thing to here..

In comparison the front snap or pushing kick another linear strike




Agian the fighter throwing the strike needs to chamber and release..the defending fighter again tries to react with vertical movement and is to slow and is hit..

The answer is laterial movement into a counter strike when your opponent is in the Chambering phase..not before or after this takes a long time to master but if you can dodge a push kick with laterial movement you can dodge the oblique then counter..



Notice the blue fighter moves as soon as the chamber begins..hes nowhere near the strike when it comes and is landing a huge jab as a counter..this same counter can be used for any straight on forward striking leg strike ..including the oblique its just comes down to timing and experience with the counter..

Another example showing what i mean by lateral movement..essentially jumping to the opposite side of the strike


This is just my opinion..hope it is helpful.

 

[aerius]

Step 1 is a proper stance & weight distribution, if the front leg is braced & angled properly the kick will either be stopped dead or glance off without doing much damage.

Step 2 as mentioned above is lateral movement, coinciding with or to setup a counter.
Valentina Shevchenko demonstrates both methods below.

Slight angled step to make the kick miss and step in with a punch counter at the same time

Angled step-in to setup the position for a kick counter

 

[ConcreteCracker]

Thank you guys very both for your I would like to say facts rather than opinions because you have proof shown above and I know you guys more than likely have much more experience than I. I also like to thank you for your support and time of day. Thank you Paolo Delutis teaching me to stay clear of both kicks completely and also mentioning that the either kick is mostly on it's own and not always in combos also providing gifs to them. I have one time seen the Low Side Kick used in a combo by Yair Rodriguez, he used a lead Low Side Kick to set up the Rear Spinning Back Fist which is a rare. Theoretically the Low Side Kick can probably only open spinning moves though but not really anything else being from side stance. I've saw a couple videos of a fighter using the Oblique Kick to set up a Rear Super Man Punch, you could also use it as a feint to set up a Rear Brazilian Kick which is pretty much the Question Mark Kick if that's in your arsenal. Personally I throw it if the opportunity presents itself but I favor a Straight Baseball Bat like Roundhouse than the Brazilian Kick. Bas Rutten, Mirko Cro Cop, Ernesto Hoost, Pat Barry, Pedro Rizzo, Thiago Alves, Forrest Griffin and Jose Aldo pretty much have me favored towards it. Aerius thank you too for teaching me the **KEYS** to the moves and also providing gifs these well timed counter strike options to each and solidifying the said defenses from Paolo Delutis.

 

[ConcreteCracker]

I would also like the viewer to know that another key to being able to defend leg kicks in general is to fix where you are looking. I keep my vision from solar plexus to chest level which allows you to see the whole body, not interested in looking into his face nor eyes. Off topic but I would like to provide gifs of my own but I can't seem to be able to do so.

 

[shincheckin]

that kick should be done away with for sport. its a great way to break your training partners knee.

 

[ConcreteCracker]

that kick should be done away with for sport. its a great way to break your training partners knee.

I disagree. No one should be throwing with full intent even in sparring unless both are willing to do so (consent). The Oblique Kick from what I know ended one fight in a Kickboxing bout. Miguel Torres stomped the knee of Angel Huerta. Now that doesn't mean it's not dangerous but ending a fight via Oblique Kick isn't as common as ending a fight via checking a Low Roundhouse and breaking the opponents leg which no Muay Thai/ Kick Boxer bats an eye to. If breaking Shins is ok then why is the Oblique Kick ostracized out of Leg Kicking due to it's potential to tear knee tendons? Both can be permanent. Head punches can have permanent brain damage, one good example: "The fallen soldier" Gerald McClellan.

At the end of the day fighting in general is risky. In sanctioned combat sports it's usually 2 fighters trying to hurt each other. That's never going to be safe and if it is it's not fighting that would be sparring.

 

[shincheckin]

I disagree. No one should be throwing with full intent even in sparring unless both are willing to do so (consent). The Oblique Kick from what I know ended one fight in a Kickboxing bout. Miguel Torres stomped the knee of Angel Huerta. Now that doesn't mean it's not dangerous but ending a fight via Oblique Kick isn't as common as ending a fight via checking a Low Roundhouse and breaking the opponents leg which no Muay Thai/ Kick Boxer bats an eye to. If breaking Shins is ok then why is the Oblique Kick ostracized out of Leg Kicking due to it's potential to tear knee tendons? Both can be permanent. Head punches can have permanent brain damage, one good example: "The fallen soldier" Gerald McClellan.

At the end of the day fighting in general is risky. In sanctioned combat sports it's usually 2 fighters trying to hurt each other. That's never going to be safe and if it is it's not fighting that would be sparring.

thats the thing, 9 - 10 ppl are douchebags that cant control themselves and think sparring is a fight, so when they do this kick, it ends up destroying someones knee. No it should not be thrown in sparring full intent, but it does. In a fight of course its full intent, and can easily break the knee.

"but ending a fight via Oblique Kick isn't as common as ending a fight via checking a Low Roundhouse and breaking the opponents leg which no Muay Thai/ Kick Boxer bats an eye to"
- Thats because the shincheck is a staple of muay thai. Compare that to this oblique kick which is rarely used. If the oblique kick was as common as the shincheck, there would be far more knee injuries than shin breaks. theres probably 1 shin break for every "million shinchecks" vs however many knee breaks for this rarely used kick.

I can remember when this kick was all over social media for it breaking that one guys knee, and all your typical "i train UFC" ppl had to say was, its a fight bro. Well let me rip your eyeballs out then, cause its a fight bro. Snapping peoples knees in half should not be part of sport. self defense is fine.

 

[ConcreteCracker]

thats the thing, 9 - 10 ppl are douchebags that cant control themselves and think sparring is a fight, so when they do this kick, it ends up destroying someones knee. No it should not be thrown in sparring full intent, but it does. In a fight of course its full intent, and can easily break the knee.

"but ending a fight via Oblique Kick isn't as common as ending a fight via checking a Low Roundhouse and breaking the opponents leg which no Muay Thai/ Kick Boxer bats an eye to"
- Thats because the shincheck is a staple of muay thai. Compare that to this oblique kick which is rarely used. If the oblique kick was as common as the shincheck, there would be far more knee injuries than shin breaks. theres probably 1 shin break for every "million shinchecks" vs however many knee breaks for this rarely used kick.

I can remember when this kick was all over social media for it breaking that one guys knee, and all your typical "i train UFC" ppl had to say was, its a fight bro. Well let me rip your eyeballs out then, cause its a fight bro. Snapping peoples knees in half should not be part of sport. self defense is fine.

"Thats because the shincheck is a staple of muay thai. Compare that to this oblique kick which is rarely used. If the oblique kick was as common as the shincheck, there would be far more knee injuries than shin breaks. theres probably 1 shin break for every "million shinchecks" vs however many knee breaks for this rarely used kick"

That's not really true and here's why

#1 In eastern Europe there is a style called Savate which I'm sure you're familiar with. Savate kicks are only delivered from the foot while wearing shoes. The Oblique Kick and Low Side Kick is almost always present in a Savate match being that striking with the shin is illegal. I personally haven't seen any story regarding a Savate practitioner receiving a Sole kick to the knee and being injured and mind you those are the only kicks they have for the legs.

#2 Sole Kicks in America aren't as common as Shin Kicks which you are right about but Jon Jones uses both Round House and Sole Kicks. He seems to have more success in kicking with the Sole rather than his Shin and to be honest, kicking with his shin has gotten him into more trouble than using his Sole to kick. His Roundhouses have been checked more times than he has broken a Knee due to his Sole Kicks.


I have sparred with a jerk who practiced Tae Kwon Do and decided to take full advantage of me allowing him to get some free punches in sparring for specifically Boxing. This is completely anecdotal so take what you will from this.

So I made up my mind and wanted to take it slow and throw weak pitter patter punches and drop my defense to let him get the feeling and flow of it. I have Boxing in my arsenal but he didn't or at least he thought he did regardless of having cement feet as footwork and a lifted chin with poor technique behind every punch he hit the heavy bag with.

Anyway for the first 20 seconds everything's ok and he's not really doing anything out of line. I'm shooting a couple jabs and he's blocking them. He returns fire with a straight with all his power down the middle which hit the bridge of my nose then preceded to do some weird body uppercuts. He distanced himself and was circling. I took it as an accident and decided to continue. Same thing, power straight followed by those weird uppercuts. Now again took it as an accident and returned fire with a couple of pitter patter punches (Jab, Lead Hook and Straight). I did it soft sort of to let him know we're not sparring hard but NOPE. He does it again but this time throws a Spinning Back Fist and smiles like he's outclassing me, at this point one of my trainers was saying "Move, don't just let him hit you MOVE!!!" So here I'm thinking we're hard sparring. So now I'm saying to myself after that "Ok If he does that one more time I'm ganna whip this kids ass" So of course he goes for it again except I slipped of and returned with an Rear Uppercut and Lead Hook and staying in his face. Now I was pissed and going to pressure him in the guidelines of Boxing. So now I land a few combos of my own and he's still with the same gig except he wants to use the Spinning Back Fist now. Ok so I blocked it and pressured him back. Threw one of my own to show him one of the correct set up and way to throw it. Then he decided to throw a Body Kick and a Knee because I pressured him to the corner, at that point he decided it was a good idea to go for an Over-Under which I was like "This N*GGA F*CKED UP"

So I used that to post him up against the padded wall and he threw a couple knees. That's fine because they glanced off of me. With the under I had I used that to uppercut him and throw a flurry of hooks and uppercuts against him while he was in the corner which he had no answer for. 30sec bell rang and we broke and reset. I had my hands down and was blading and rolling with his punches. I threw the same combos as I said up top and ended the session with a Rear Superman Punch that landed flush which I was satisfied with. Of course his dad got angry because of it. People except my trainers said I threw Elbows which wasn't true. I keep my hooks in tight when I throw them.


Moral of the story. My trainers told me this all the time "Go as hard as your opponent is going"


The point of this post is to find an answer for those kicks not ban them. If your sparring partner is doing it work a way around it and make him pay. He/she needs to learn the value of trust and not take advantage of people.

 

[aerius]

thats the thing, 9 - 10 ppl are douchebags that cant control themselves and think sparring is a fight, so when they do this kick, it ends up destroying someones knee. No it should not be thrown in sparring full intent, but it does. In a fight of course its full intent, and can easily break the knee.

"but ending a fight via Oblique Kick isn't as common as ending a fight via checking a Low Roundhouse and breaking the opponents leg which no Muay Thai/ Kick Boxer bats an eye to"
- Thats because the shincheck is a staple of muay thai. Compare that to this oblique kick which is rarely used. If the oblique kick was as common as the shincheck, there would be far more knee injuries than shin breaks. theres probably 1 shin break for every "million shinchecks" vs however many knee breaks for this rarely used kick.

Learn a proper stance, it's not hard. If you look at Shevchenko's stance in my previous post, you can push kick her knee all you want and all you'll do is end up hurting your own foot. Or just stay light on the front leg so the kick has nothing to push against & break if it connects. The fighters who cry about the push kick are the ones who use a front leg heavy stance with their lead leg almost straight, like Rampage Jackson for example.

Also, this. Singdam throws the push kick to the knee a bunch of times in the first 2 rounds and does no damage, he actually dings up Saenchai a lot better with regular low kicks.

The point of this post is to find an answer for those kicks not ban them. If your sparring partner is doing it work a way around it and make him pay. He/she needs to learn the value of trust and not take advantage of people.

Yup. Even in MMA, fighters have been using the push kick to the knee for at least 10 years (see Brendan Vera vs. Keith Jardine). If you still haven't figured out how to defend it, you're way behind the curve and bordering on "speshul". Put it this way, women's MMA is generally acknowledged to be well behind the men's, and they've already figured out how to defend it (Namajunas vs. Waterson and Holm vs. Shevchenko). If you're not training for it and learning how to defend it, you might as well join Rampage in retirement.

 

[shincheckin]

"Thats because the shincheck is a staple of muay thai. Compare that to this oblique kick which is rarely used. If the oblique kick was as common as the shincheck, there would be far more knee injuries than shin breaks. theres probably 1 shin break for every "million shinchecks" vs however many knee breaks for this rarely used kick"

That's not really true and here's why

#1 In eastern Europe there is a style called Savate which I'm sure you're familiar with. Savate kicks are only delivered from the foot while wearing shoes. The Oblique Kick and Low Side Kick is almost always present in a Savate match being that striking with the shin is illegal. I personally haven't seen any story regarding a Savate practitioner receiving a Sole kick to the knee and being injured and mind you those are the only kicks they have for the legs.

#2 Sole Kicks in America aren't as common as Shin Kicks which you are right about but Jon Jones uses both Round House and Sole Kicks. He seems to have more success in kicking with the Sole rather than his Shin and to be honest, kicking with his shin has gotten him into more trouble than using his Sole to kick. His Roundhouses have been checked more times than he has broken a Knee due to his Sole Kicks.


I have sparred with a jerk who practiced Tae Kwon Do and decided to take full advantage of me allowing him to get some free punches in sparring for specifically Boxing. This is completely anecdotal so take what you will from this.

So I made up my mind and wanted to take it slow and throw weak pitter patter punches and drop my defense to let him get the feeling and flow of it. I have Boxing in my arsenal but he didn't or at least he thought he did regardless of having cement feet as footwork and a lifted chin with poor technique behind every punch he hit the heavy bag with.

Anyway for the first 20 seconds everything's ok and he's not really doing anything out of line. I'm shooting a couple jabs and he's blocking them. He returns fire with a straight with all his power down the middle which hit the bridge of my nose then preceded to do some weird body uppercuts. He distanced himself and was circling. I took it as an accident and decided to continue. Same thing, power straight followed by those weird uppercuts. Now again took it as an accident and returned fire with a couple of pitter patter punches (Jab, Lead Hook and Straight). I did it soft sort of to let him know we're not sparring hard but NOPE. He does it again but this time throws a Spinning Back Fist and smiles like he's outclassing me, at this point one of my trainers was saying "Move, don't just let him hit you MOVE!!!" So here I'm thinking we're hard sparring. So now I'm saying to myself after that "Ok If he does that one more time I'm ganna whip this kids ass" So of course he goes for it again except I slipped of and returned with an Rear Uppercut and Lead Hook and staying in his face. Now I was pissed and going to pressure him in the guidelines of Boxing. So now I land a few combos of my own and he's still with the same gig except he wants to use the Spinning Back Fist now. Ok so I blocked it and pressured him back. Threw one of my own to show him one of the correct set up and way to throw it. Then he decided to throw a Body Kick and a Knee because I pressured him to the corner, at that point he decided it was a good idea to go for an Over-Under which I was like "This N*GGA F*CKED UP"

So I used that to post him up against the padded wall and he threw a couple knees. That's fine because they glanced off of me. With the under I had I used that to uppercut him and throw a flurry of hooks and uppercuts against him while he was in the corner which he had no answer for. 30sec bell rang and we broke and reset. I had my hands down and was blading and rolling with his punches. I threw the same combos as I said up top and ended the session with a Rear Superman Punch that landed flush which I was satisfied with. Of course his dad got angry because of it. People except my trainers said I threw Elbows which wasn't true. I keep my hooks in tight when I throw them.


Moral of the story. My trainers told me this all the time "Go as hard as your opponent is going"


The point of this post is to find an answer for those kicks not ban them. If your sparring partner is doing it work a way around it and make him pay. He/she needs to learn the value of trust and not take advantage of people.

i dont like it

 

[shincheckin]

Learn a proper stance, it's not hard. If you look at Shevchenko's stance in my previous post, you can push kick her knee all you want and all you'll do is end up hurting your own foot. Or just stay light on the front leg so the kick has nothing to push against & break if it connects. The fighters who cry about the push kick are the ones who use a front leg heavy stance with their lead leg almost straight, like Rampage Jackson for example.

Also, this. Singdam throws the push kick to the knee a bunch of times in the first 2 rounds and does no damage, he actually dings up Saenchai a lot better with regular low kicks.




Yup. Even in MMA, fighters have been using the push kick to the knee for at least 10 years (see Brendan Vera vs. Keith Jardine). If you still haven't figured out how to defend it, you're way behind the curve and bordering on "speshul". Put it this way, women's MMA is generally acknowledged to be well behind the men's, and they've already figured out how to defend it (Namajunas vs. Waterson and Holm vs. Shevchenko). If you're not training for it and learning how to defend it, you might as well join Rampage in retirement.

in that vid it sure did look like he was throwing the teep at the knee, but generally speaking, you teep the thigh not the knee, I have used the thigh teep in a couple of fights now. its like an armbar, if you tap and dude doesnt stop, its going to snap. Hit the knee hard enough, or at the wrong time/weird awkward moment, and its high chance for injury.

 

[shincheckin]

Step 1 is a proper stance & weight distribution, if the front leg is braced & angled properly the kick will either be stopped dead or glance off without doing much damage.

Step 2 as mentioned above is lateral movement, coinciding with or to setup a counter.
Valentina Shevchenko demonstrates both methods below.

Slight angled step to make the kick miss and step in with a punch counter at the same time

Angled step-in to setup the position for a kick counter

blue shorts missed both times, didnt land clean at all. The way I see, it didnt have anythign to do with the other girls stance. She simply missed. at those angles, had it landed clean


i got jumped once when i was about 18 by much larger older guys. I got knocked onto the ground, and luckily only 1 of them decided to try and kick me while i was down. Rather than letting him get a "T bone" angle on me, which he was trying to do, to load up a big soccer kick. I kept spinning on my back, to angle at him to kick his knee. After a few tries i got a solid one to his knee. it didnt break it, but was enough to stop him, they all ran back to the car, he was limping.

 

[shincheckin]

anyways guys im off this thread ill end it at I agree to disagree

 

[aerius]

blue shorts missed both times, didnt land clean at all. The way I see, it didnt have anythign to do with the other girls stance. She simply missed. at those angles, had it landed clean

Of course it missed, Shevchenko knows how to defend those kicks. And even if the kicks landed, they'd do very little damage since the front leg is angled & braced into the direction of the kick such that the knee can't be bent backwards and/or dislocated.

i got jumped once when i was about 18 by much larger older guys. I got knocked onto the ground, and luckily only 1 of them decided to try and kick me while i was down. Rather than letting him get a "T bone" angle on me, which he was trying to do, to load up a big soccer kick. I kept spinning on my back, to angle at him to kick his knee. After a few tries i got a solid one to his knee. it didnt break it, but was enough to stop him, they all ran back to the car, he was limping.

That's because the guy didn't know what he was doing. When I was in high school, the stomp kick to the knee was my go-to move in every fight, and it worked damn near every time since I was up against untrained guys with no idea of how to defend it. They don't see it coming, they're in the wrong stance, one shot, game over. Against people know how to defend against it, the effectiveness goes down the toilet.

 

[shincheckin]

Of course it missed, Shevchenko knows how to defend those kicks. And even if the kicks landed, they'd do very little damage since the front leg is angled & braced into the direction of the kick such that the knee can't be bent backwards and/or dislocated.



That's because the guy didn't know what he was doing. When I was in high school, the stomp kick to the knee was my go-to move in every fight, and it worked damn near every time since I was up against untrained guys with no idea of how to defend it. They don't see it coming, they're in the wrong stance, one shot, game over. Against people know how to defend against it, the effectiveness goes down the toilet.

"Of course it missed, Shevchenko knows how to defend those kicks. And even if the kicks landed, they'd do very little damage since the front leg is angled & braced into the direction of the kick such that the knee can't be bent backwards and/or dislocated."


looks alot more like blue shorts simply missed, not because the girl did any sort of technique, she just missed in th first video, the other girl stepped in and jabbed at the same time she threw it just as coincedence so it didnt land clean and glanced off to the side. the heel landed on the side of the thigh and slid right off. Pretty much the same thing happened in the other video but its on the other side and the toes landed on the side of the thigh and slipped off, as the other girl was stepping in. its possible she saw the kick and side stepped or whatever, but i dont see it as a technique that was done intentionally, and more like just coincidence. anyways i thought i was going to get off this thread lol.

teep to the thigh, kinda hard to see form the angle of the picture.

quick video of teep to thigh, i try again right away and miss

 

[Rolento]

Y'all forgot the number one knee stomper

 

[shincheckin]

Y'all forgot the number one knee stomper

perfect example of what happens when this kick lands cleanly and why it should be banned.

 

[William Huggins]

Your shin bone if broken has a good chance of being as good as new after healing and a bit of rehabilitation, your knee on the other hand is a total different thing and there is a very good chance of your knee never being the same again......and because of the extra load on your other knee there is a higher chance of failure of your good knee.....