Opinion The end of the War on Islam

[moosaev]

How would you feel if it was?

I’m Muslim so obviously I want all non Muslims beheaded.

 

[MicroBrew]

Liberals painted us as being at war with Islam? Wrong. They wanted to temper criticism of Muslim countries? Wrong. In both cases, not just wrong but pretty much the exact opposite of reality, and it's very odd that anyone would even think that by mistake. Like, you don't remember Republicans insisting that Obama say we're at war with Islamic rather than Islamist terrorism? That was a major talking point. You don't remember mocking attempts to boost moderates by specifically avoiding criticism of the religion and focusing on terrorists and certain political leaders (often you'd see rightist morons say "religion of peace" whenever some terrorist attack happened). Just a really strange belief expressed in that bit.

Some liberals - during the time of Bush Jnr - were sympathetic to Muslims who tried to make people question the US narrative that the 2 wars weren't wars against Islam. Liberals were anti Bush and sympathetic to Muslims, because they are seen as 'brown' people oppressed by the White world, which is why even now they refuse to take Islamic supremacism and the religon to task like they do with White power.

Both Obama and Bush Jnr made dam sure people believed Islam was a religon of peace. That is why you have rightwingers mockingly say "religon of peace" , because the establishment was trying to brainwash the public into accepting Islam was a religon of peace.

Obama and people like Hillary took great pains to insist that the US was not at war with Islam. When the Orlando nightclub shooting happened, the Obama admin tried to bamboozle the public by trying to claim it was not motivated by Islamic zeal, that it was just a lone wolf nut. This gas lighting was soo absurd that even Al Qaeda said the Obama admin was lying, that the killer was an Islamic warrior.

 

[Islam Imamate]

TS is an idiot

Tell me how you really feel.

 

[KnightTemplar]

A interesting opinion piece on the fading relevance of Islam related issues and the War on Terror in the wider discourse.

Why America's decade-and-a-half freakout over Islam is over



Here's his reasons in bullet points which you can read more on in the article


I think he has a point, you can notice it even here in the War Room. Before the withdrawal from Afghanistan there were barely any threads related to Islam. Even after it feels as if the perception of the event wasn't really filtered through the same "WoT" lens, if anything Afghanistan and the clusterfuck over there is emblematic of American fatigue with the WoT. So many people are deeply cynical about the real motivations behind the WoT that they're less likely to buy into the kinds of talking points that were once the norm in the discussion around such issues.

As he points out other countries have taken on the mantle. You've got authoritarian countries like China and Burma with heavy crackdowns on their Muslim minorities which they justify with reference to WoT terminology. And with the recent Islamist murders in France combined with the crackdown on Muslims and their institutions it seems to have intensified even in other Western democracies. But here in the US few seem to care anymore.

The War on Terror is played out. It's time for Cold War II: Years of the Dragon.

Got to keep those Military - Industrial Complex contracts rolling in, bro!

 

[Oceanmachine]

theres a reason why christian countries are the most advanced in the world and all the muslims are fleeing muslim countries and coming in droves to these christian countries.

these christian countries are usually very tolerant (sometimes way too tolerant). thats why youll see some ungrateful muslims come, benefit from the system and then disrespect their host nation.

Come on it has more to do with race and culture you know that. There are plenty of muslim vountries now that are better off and historically were compared to christians. Genetttics butnnot pc to say

I will say extreme fundamentalism of course can harm an intelligent high IQ people as well. It stifles science and logical discours

 

[Denter]

I was gonna be named after my great uncle but my dad thought it'd be weird and offensive to be yelling and disciplining me while referring to me with that name so he decided against it.

Of course funding came from SA and other Gulf countries but I've never heard it specified that it was clerics doing the funding, usually its framed as wealthy donors who are politically connected. That's a key distinction.

The Saudi state does not hesitate to jail clerics that get out of line. I think you're right, it's factions within the establishment

 

[Islam Imamate]

The Saudi state does not hesitate to jail clerics that get out of line. I think you're right, it's factions within the establishment

In the infamous leaked cables Saudi princes bragged that their clerics are at their beck and call.

My understanding is that the problem are people like OBL, individuals who are part of wealthy, politically connected families in the Kingdom that for whatever reason become sympathetic to jihadists. OBL was exceptional in his willingness to fight himself and relocate to the battlefield but most don't go that far and simply send money and whatnot.

https://www.jihadwatch.org/2019/08/fear-of-muslims-leads-to-prison-conversions-to-islam-report-3298

A lot of conversions are via prison and these are probably coerced

If you're out here touting a study that has just over 150 participants I better not see you complaining about a Gallup or Pew poll for "only" having a four digit sample size.

Anyway that's in one country, the UK. Do you think that applies to the US?

 

[MicroBrew]

The Saudi state does not hesitate to jail clerics that get out of line. I think you're right, it's factions within the establishment

The MBS regime is trying to paint a picture of being moderate. This is in part to ensure the West - especially the US establishment - will continue to support MBS. MBS knows that to keep the reigns of power and squash competitors to the throne, he needs Western allies.

It also looks like part of the reason is that MBS realized that Saudi can not sit back and rely on oil and the Haj to fund their quality of life. While money from the Haj is sizeable, it is not enough. They will eventually run out of fossil fuels or most countries will go electric and renewable making oil far less of a valuable commodity. MBS has seen how Dubai and Abu Dhabi have both expanded their economy and soft power outside of oil. MBS was mentored by MBZ of Abu Dhabi.

Saudi reforms touted in the West are somewhat misleading though, because even while MBS tries to paint this picture of his regime being progressive, he has quietly been imprisoning women activists who call for reforms.

Prominent female activist Loujain Al Hathloul was imprisoned last year and released early this year, after international pressure.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...en-s-rights-activist-released-prison-n1257140

--

A prominent Saudi female activist, who campaigned for women's right to drive, has been sentenced to more than five years in prison.

Loujain al-Hathloul, 31, has already been in a maximum security prison for two and a half years.

She and other activists were detained in 2018 on charges including contacts with organisations hostile to Saudi Arabia.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-55467414


--

The Saudi MBS regime's plan is to give the impression of reforms and drip-feed some reforms but they are opposed to people trying to spearhead reforms. The regime wants everything done top-down.

 

[moosaev]

Some liberals - during the time of Bush Jnr - were sympathetic to Muslims who tried to make people question the US narrative that the 2 wars weren't wars against Islam. Liberals were anti Bush and sympathetic to Muslims, because they are seen as 'brown' people oppressed by the White world, which is why even now they refuse to take Islamic supremacism and the religon to task like they do with White power.

Both Obama and Bush Jnr made dam sure people believed Islam was a religon of peace. That is why you have rightwingers mockingly say "religon of peace" , because the establishment was trying to brainwash the public into accepting Islam was a religon of peace.

Obama and people like Hillary took great pains to insist that the US was not at war with Islam. When the Orlando nightclub shooting happened, the Obama admin tried to bamboozle the public by trying to claim it was not motivated by Islamic zeal, that it was just a lone wolf nut. This gas lighting was soo absurd that even Al Qaeda said the Obama admin was lying, that the killer was an Islamic warrior.

Liberals were defending Muslims as a reaction to the absurd anti Muslim hysteria of the oughts and early 2010s. The conservative right were actively trying to block mosques being built, passing ridiculous and unnecessary anti-Sharia legislation. It was absurd levels of anti Muslim hysteria. The so called “ground zero mosque” which wasn’t a mosque and wasn’t at ground zero is a good example. Another lesser known is the Murfreesboro mosque, in which the citizens of Murfreesboro tried to legally tie up the construction of a mosque for no reason other than blatant bigotry, the judge who presided on the final judgement had to rebuke the plaintiffs for not giving a shit about the constitution. People actually tried to organize at scale to stop Muslims from practicing their constitutional rights. Fox News had segments every night on Sharia law, it was absurd. Glenn Beck asked the first Muslim congressman to prove he wasn’t America’s enemy, this was after the Republican uproar about the fact that he chose to swear in on the Quran instead of the Bible. The anti-Muslim hysteria was comically high back then, and it’s only abated because the right has chosen to focus on the left and conspiracies about globalists elites.

 

[Islam Imamate]

Liberals painted us as being at war with Islam? Wrong. They wanted to temper criticism of Muslim countries? Wrong. In both cases, not just wrong but pretty much the exact opposite of reality, and it's very odd that anyone would even think that by mistake. Like, you don't remember Republicans insisting that Obama say we're at war with Islamic rather than Islamist terrorism? That was a major talking point. You don't remember mocking attempts to boost moderates by specifically avoiding criticism of the religion and focusing on terrorists and certain political leaders (often you'd see rightist morons say "religion of peace" whenever some terrorist attack happened). Just a really strange belief expressed in that bit.

Liberals were defending Muslims as a reaction to the absurd anti Muslim hysteria of the oughts and early 2010s. The conservative right were actively trying to block mosques being built, passing ridiculous and unnecessary anti-Sharia legislation. It was absurd levels of anti Muslim hysteria. The so called “ground zero mosque” which wasn’t a mosque and wasn’t at ground zero is a good example. Another lesser known is the Murfreesboro mosque. People actually tried to organize at scale to stop Muslims from practicing their constitutional rights. Fox News had segments every night on Sharia law, it was absurd. Glenn Beck asked the first Muslim congressman to prove he wasn’t America’s enemy, this was after the Republican uproar about the fact that he chose to swear in on the Quran instead of the Bible. The anti-Muslim hysteria was comically high back then, and it’s only abated because the right has chosen to focus on the left and conspiracies about globalists elites.

The idea that criticism of Islam was marginalized by this an overwhelming politically correct left just doesn't jive with the fact that the clash of civilizations was a major talking point among media figures and in the political discourse for years on end. Lots of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali made their careers almost solely based on shallow anti-Islam rhetoric who, btw, openly said we are at war with Islam and became a darling of the right wing media and political think tank ecosystem for it. There are many lesser AHAs out there like Wafa Sultan, Bridgette Gabriel, and Robert Spencer who provided nothing but reactionary anti-Islam discourse. Thankfully it seems their fifteen minutes of fame are up.

 

[moosaev]

The idea that criticism of Islam was marginalized by this an overwhelming politically correct left just doesn't jive with the fact that the clash of civilizations was a major talking point among media figures and in the political discourse for years on end. Lots of people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali made their careers almost solely based on shallow anti-Islam rhetoric who, btw, openly said we are at war with Islam and became a darling of the right wing media and political think tank ecosystem for it. There are many lesser AHAs out there like Wafa Sultan, Bridgette Gabriel, and Robert Spencer who provided nothing but reactionary anti-Islam discourse. Thankfully it seems their fifteen minutes of fame are up.

The hysteria got so bad that people like Robert Spencer and Frank Gaffney tried to cancel uber conservative Grover Norquist for the sin of having a Palestinian wife, and thus being a “Muslim lover”. I remember that’s when Gaffney seemed to jump the shark for some conservatives. It took him attacking a white conservative guy for them to see how crazy he was. Also who can forget the letters Michelle Bachman sent accusing Hilary Clinton’s aide Huma Abedin of being a sleeper agent of the Muslim brotherhood. It was absurd and deranged rhetoric back then. And nobody has apologized for any of it. Meanwhile Ilhan Omar quotes a rap lyric and the entire establishment comes down on her like a ton of bricks accusing her of anti-semitism and discrediting her forever.

 

[MicroBrew]

Liberals were defending Muslims as a reaction to the absurd anti Muslim hysteria of the oughts and early 2010s. The conservative right were actively trying to block mosques being built, passing ridiculous and unnecessary anti-Sharia legislation. It was absurd levels of anti Muslim hysteria. The so called “ground zero mosque” which wasn’t a mosque and wasn’t at ground zero is a good example. Another lesser known is the Murfreesboro mosque, in which the citizens of Murfreesboro tried to legally tie up the construction of a mosque for no reason other than blatant bigotry, the judge who presided on the final judgement had to rebuke the plaintiffs for not giving a shit about the constitution. People actually tried to organize at scale to stop Muslims from practicing their constitutional rights. Fox News had segments every night on Sharia law, it was absurd. Glenn Beck asked the first Muslim congressman to prove he wasn’t America’s enemy, this was after the Republican uproar about the fact that he chose to swear in on the Quran instead of the Bible. The anti-Muslim hysteria was comically high back then, and it’s only abated because the right has chosen to focus on the left and conspiracies about globalists elites.

There was some anti Muslim narratives from the alt-right and CT rightwing, but the liberals -and Bush Jnr- also tried to gas light people on Islam , insisting it was a religon of peace. Obama admin also tried to to hoodwink people on the intentions of the Orlando killer. Liberals also deliberately tried to hoodwink people into believing that ISIS was not Islamic.

The mosque blocking thing was a very rare occurance though, it wasn't like most counties were trying to block. You singled out very rare cases.

 

[moosaev]

There was some anti Muslim narratives from the alt-right and CT rightwing, but the liberals -and Bush Jnr- also tried to gas light people on Islam , insisting it was a religon of peace. Obama admin also tried to to hoodwink people on the intentions of the Orlando killer. Liberals also deliberately tried to hoodwink people into believing that ISIS was not Islamic.

The mosque blocking thing was a very rare occurance though, it wasn't like most counties were trying to block. You singled out very rare cases.

I singled out cases that had the support of the entire right wing media and politicians. Blocking the mosques from being built was a mainstream Republican position, it wasn’t fringe at all. I also left out many other cases, there was a huge push to stop Chris Christie from nominating a Muslim judge to the New Jersey state bench, Republicans were calling Christie a traitor and in one of his few shining moments he refused to back down from the criticism and won a lot of praise from liberals and gained a reputation for being principled (which is why I think he chose to run for President).

 

[Islam Imamate]

There was some anti Muslim narratives from the alt-right and CT rightwing, but the liberals -and Bush Jnr- also tried to gas light people on Islam , insisting it was a religon of peace. Obama admin also tried to to hoodwink people on the intentions of the Orlando killer. Liberals also deliberately tried to hoodwink people into believing that ISIS was not Islamic.

The mosque blocking thing was a very rare occurance though, it wasn't like most counties were trying to block. You singled out very rare cases.

Now I am starting to think you're being dishonest here man because those narratives were really mainstream and preceded the rise of the alt-right and the prominence of CTs in the discourse. Of course progressive circles were more sympathetic to Muslims but even among progressives it was far from uncommon to find anti-Muslim sentiment for much of the same reasons there's anti-Christian sentiment among them.

 

[MicroBrew]

I singled out cases that had the support of the entire right wing media and politicians. Blocking the mosques from being built was a mainstream Republican position, it wasn’t fringe at all. I also left out many other cases, there was a huge push to stop Chris Christie from nominating a Muslim judge to the New Jersey state bench, Republicans were calling Christie a traitor and in one of his few shining moments he refused to back down from the criticism and won a lot of praise from liberals and gained a reputation for being principled (which is why I think he chose to run for President).

You are talking about z list conservative and activism by rightwing pundits. The Republican establishment of Bush and Co. wasn't onboard. If the GOP establishment really was anti Muslim, they would have effectively blocked all Muslim emmigration, they would have made sure to educate the American people on the justification for violence in Islam.

When Trump brought in the ban on emmigration from countries that were mostly Muslim, liberals and Muslims decried it as an anti Muslim ban when it wasn't, because the largest Muslim countries (by population) were not on the ban. The ban was for high risk countries. The only country that was on the list that wasn't high risk was Iran, and Iran was thrown in because the Neocons hate Iran.

 

[Noveltymortar]

All supremacist and authoritarian ideas can kiss my ass. Yet the SJW nonsense is just a fad while the conservative cancer of Islam keeps growing. Oddly enough with the help of SJWs. Ain't that something?

Hopefully you're right about the SJW nonsense being a fad and not a lasting reset of values. Agree about everything else you said. I'm not really ready to embrace Islam.

 

[forum poster]

You mean the US is no longer teetering on the brink of Shari'a law? That's a relief. Twas a close call.

 

[MicroBrew]

Now I am starting to think you're being dishonest here man because those narratives were really mainstream and preceded the rise of the alt-right and the prominence of CTs in the discourse. Of course progressive circles were more sympathetic to Muslims but even among progressives it was far from uncommon to find anti-Muslim sentiment for much of the same reasons there's anti-Christian sentiment among them.

No , I can not see any anti Muslim sentiment among progressives. I can not think of any notable progressive who has attacked Muslims. Some progressives - Dawkins and Maher - have attacked Islam the religon but attacking the religon is not attacking Muslims. And Maher is a pseudo progressive anyways, because he was sympathetic to Israeli military action against the Palestinians.

The Alt-Right has been around much longer than the narratives you speak of. The only reason it may seem like they emerged after 9-11 is because wide internet usage and social media really only became common in the 2000s. In the 90s, social media was lacking and most people had no internet or had dial up. Rush Limbaugh , Mike Regan (son of Ronnie), G Gordon Liddy (of watergate fame) were walking that Alt-Right line before 9-11 happened.

The narratives and sentiments espoused by the American Alt-Right didn't emerge to oppose Islam or Muslims, it came about as opposition to America's progressive shift post Civl Rights era. I have been reading the Alt-Right since the mid to late 2000s and used to listen to Rush and Mike Regan in the 90s and early 2000s. The Alt-Right's main beef was not with Muslims or Islam , though there is some anti Muslim and or Anti Islamic content, their main beef has always been with Blacks, Mestizo immigration, LGBTQ, Feminism, Jewish influence and more recently SJWs, Woke and BLM. The American Alt-Right has been one of the biggest supporters of non-interventionism and pulling American troops out of countries. The Alt-Right was happy when Trump wanted to bring all the troops home and they were pissed when he bombed Syria. The Alt-Right primarily cared about demographic change in America and loss of power for the WASP establishment. The Alt-Right is really just old school Paleoconsevatism. They are called Alt-Right because Neocons took over the GOP and establishment conservative media, and painted the Alt-Right (palecons) as nativists, anti Semites and xenophobes.

 

[moosaev]

Hopefully you're right about the SJW nonsense being a fad and not a lasting reset of values. Agree about everything else you said. I'm not really ready to embrace Islam.

Nobody is asking you to embrace Islam. Just leave Muslims alone and don’t try to harass them and bully them. Not much to ask.

 

[freakroor]

war on islam is over, war on drugs is still going strong!

anti-drug propaganda > anti-muslim propaganda

cops with US military gear to use on US citizens > Taliban with US military gear to use on afghan citizens.