Media The Day Yuji Shimada & Daisuke Noguchi did Ken dirty... #40

[JacJeanFinger]

hmm..nah, Ken was hardly rocked, rewatch the replay in slow-mo..That was not even a hard punch.

He wanted out.

Meanwhile, 2 fights = 2 Refs = 2 different treaments of similar situation.

Shimada didn't see it in slo-mo and he called a TKO. Good call because shamrock was not intelligently defending himself regardless of his real conditions. I won't discuss legitimacy of the fight either.

Obara escaped outside by his own will and it was a defense tactic. He would have been disqualified for another attempt to move out of the ring just like Hugo Duarte in PRIDE 4.

 

[Dead Spirit of MMA]

hmm, yeah, but what is discussed here is not the legitimacy of the stoppage, but rather the different treament these 2 fights received, about a similar technical sequence.

Im personally fine with either the yellow card or the stoppage.

What muddies the waters from my view is that Ken was definitely finished and Ohara possibly saved himself from being finished but there's no way to know for sure. I think what Ohara did probably would warrant a DQ or TKO loss, though.

 

[gono btw]

Shimada didn't see it in slo-mo and he called a TKO. Good call because shamrock was not intelligently defending himself regardless of his real conditions. I won't discuss legitimacy of the fight either.

Obara escaped outside by his own will and it was a defense tactic. He would have been disqualified for another attempt to move out of the ring just like Hugo Duarte in PRIDE 4.

What muddies the waters from my view is that Ken was definitely finished and Ohara possibly saved himself from being finished but there's no way to know for sure. I think what Ohara did probably would warrant a DQ or TKO loss, though.

Well, the way I see it, Ken was hardly finished.
And both Ken & Ohara tried to used a defense tactic imo.

Ken took a punch, didnt like it (and was obviously out of his prime) and wanted out.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

I think what compares better with the ending of shamrock vs sakuraba would be sakuraba vs vovchanchyn.

As Igor tried to punch from behind, sakuraba escaped his head and shoulders outside the ropes and waited for the referee to stop and restart. He was not given a card because he pretended Igor forced him out by the accident.

Sakuraba actually escaped to avoid getting hit like Francisco Bueno.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

The differences were the locations of their heads and how damaged they looked at the time of stoppage.

What was noguchi supposed to do when he knew Ken had nowhere to go, collapsing or pretending to collapse. (It didn't matter for the referee. )

 

[gono btw]

I think what compared better with the ending of shamrock vs sakuraba would be sakuraba vs vovchanchyn.

As Igor tried to punch from behind, sakuraba escaped his head and shoulders outside the ropes and waited for the referee to stop and restart. He was not given a card because he pretended Igor forced him out by the accident.

Sakuraba actually escaped to avoid getting hit like Francisco Bueno.

kindah difficult... Igor had top/back control in the final technical sequence of the fight, SAKU had limited options, makes it a distinct fight situation.

 

[gono btw]

The differences were the locations of their heads and how damaged they looked at the time of stoppage.

What was noguchi supposed to do when he knew Ken had nowhere to go, collapsing or pretending to collapse. (It didn't matter for the referee. )

Consistency is the name of the game here.
Unless Hume & Co. decided between Pride 22 & 30 that a rope escape attempt meant no longer a mere yellow card.

Unless Shimada understood that Ken was [technically] tappin´, obviously.

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Consistency is the name of the game here.
Unless Hume & Co. decided between Pride 22 & 30 that a rope escape attempt meant no longer a mere yellow card.

Unless Shimada understood that Ken was [technically] tappin´, obviously.

Gono btw, when you create a thread to discuss misrefereeing, misjudging, inconsistancies, double standards, and unfairnesses in JMMA, let me know. I have 500 posts to contribute.

Obara got out of the ring while dedending on the ground. Ken couldn't even stick head out of the ring while collapsing and not defending. They were 2 completely different cases that required different actions.

Ken Shamrock, for any reason tried to find a way out and he got out of not the ring but the fight....that I agree with you.

 

[gono btw]

Gono btw, when you create a thread to discuss misrefereeing, misjudging, inconsistancies, double standards, and unfairnesses in JMMA, let me know. I have 500 posts to contribute.

Obara got out of the ring while dedending on the ground. Ken couldn't even stick head out of the ring while collapsing and not defending. They were 2 completely different cases that required different actions.


Ken Shamrock, for any reason tried to find a way out and he got out of not the ring but the fight....that I agree with you.

Nah, Ohara was not defendin´on the ground, he jus´ went for the rope escape to avoid Randle´s attack. jus´like Ken.

Have a good look at Ken´s body language in that sequence, and dont be bluffed: he was hardly collapsin´.

SAKU´s shot was good (indeed, very underrated strikin´), but.. let´s keep it real... not that good, and it was a shot from an undersized opponent (WW/MW vs LHW).

Spoiler

 

[gono btw]

Ken gets hit hard and falls to the mat, ref stops the fight as TKO.

Controversy?


This thread sucks.

Read the OP, ya...

Spoiler

 

[JacJeanFinger]

Nah, Ohara was not defendin´on the ground, he jus´ went for the rope escape to avoid Randle´s attack. jus´like Ken.

Have a good look at Ken´s body language in that sequence, and dont be bluffed: he was hardly collapsin´.

SAKU´s shot was good (indeed, very underrated strikin´), but.. let´s keep it real... not that good, and it was a shot from an undersized opponent (WW/MW vs LHW).

Spoiler

View attachment 587467

Rolling out of the position to avoid getting hit is a defense technique whether you saw it in mma or in kungfu film.

Ken was obviously not defending himself. You cannot defend yourself while exposing the back of your head to your opponent aiming for ko. I don't know what ken was really thinking in his head. Maybe he was in a mood to claim "edge of the glove got in his eye..."or something. But we're not gonna spend any more minutes to discuss his acting skill. For any reason, ken turned his back to his opponent and stayed in the ring without defending himself = end of a fight regardless.

What sakuraba did in the Igor fight was different because he kept the entire head and shoulders outside the ropes knowing ref would stop and restart them in a safe position. Since he did it in a smarter way than Obara did, no card was issued.

Thank you.

 

[gono btw]

Rolling out of the position to avoid getting hit is a defense technique whether you saw it in mma or in kungfu film.

Ken was obviously not defending himself. You cannot defend yourself while exposing the back of your head to your opponent aiming for ko. I don't know what ken was really thinking in his head. Maybe he was in a mood to claim "edge of the glove got in his eye..."or something. But we're not gonna spend any more minutes to discuss his acting skill. For any reason, ken turned his back to his opponent and stayed in the ring without defending himself = end of a fight regardless.

What sakuraba did in the Igor fight was different because he kept the entire head and shoulders outside the ropes knowing ref would stop and restart them in a safe position. Since he did it in a smarter way than Obara did, no card was issued.

Thank you.

hmm..nah... Ohara did more than rollin´ out as a defensive technique, he consciously opted for the rope escape, which should be a no-no within the Pride Fight Configuration.

Meanwhile, again: Igor had top/back control, SAKU had pretty limited defensive options.
In a way, Igor 'forced' him to do that..
> The very same way Ebenezer Braga had limited options when Randleman literally 'gave' him the rope escape:

CASE STUDY 3: Against Ebenezer Braga @ Universal Vale Tudo Fighting 6 [March 3, 1997]:

Monster would work hard for the TD, but watch how (after Coleman 'helped' him to prevent the rope escape) he would jeopardize his dominant position by decidin´to punch with the right hand...towards the ropes again...
Note: in the Vale Tudo Fight Configuration, the infamous rope escape traditionally led to a restart...on the feet.

View attachment 577973 View attachment 577975

Spoiler: vs Ebenezer Braga

@ 9mn45:

[/SPOILER]

 

[JacJeanFinger]

hmm..nah... Ohara did more than rollin´ out as a defensive technique, he consciously opted for the rope escape, which should be a no-no within the Pride Fight Configuration.

Meanwhile, again: Igor had top/back control, SAKU had pretty limited defensive options.
In a way, Igor 'pushed' him to do that..
> The very same way Ebenezer Braga had limited options when Randleman literally 'gave' him the rope escape:

OK my friend. Let's move on. Every point you have made in this thread was countered with satisfactory argument. You're welcome to stay with your opinions and I won't respect you less because of that.

I'm not here to offend anyone's feeling including yours and mine. I've lived a long wrong life which gave me the opportunities to witness a lot more fights than people who started to watch mma during the original TUF. It's a pleasure to share some of the rarely known facts with cools guys around the world on sherdog. My purpose of being here is just that.

I used to enjoy reading japonophile posters like Todd Atkins or Evil Yoshida who knew their shit really well. Glad to see another prominent one emerging.

 

[gono btw]

OK my friend. Let's move on. Every point you have made in this thread was countered with satisfactory argument. You're welcome to stay with your opinions and I won't respect you less because of that.

I'm not here to offend anyone's feeling including yours and mine. I've lived a long wrong life which gave me the opportunities to witness a lot more fights than people who started to watch mma during the original TUF. It's a pleasure to share some of the rarely known facts with cools guys around the world on sherdog. My purpose of being here is just that.

I used to enjoy reading japonophile posters like Todd Atkins or Evil Yoshida who knew their shit really well. Glad to see another prominent one emerging.

Matter of pespective, then...

See ya in the next Day Threads.

 

[Saku'sEar]

I remember this fight, it seemed like a legit flash KO when I first watched it..

there are various possibilities

1) Shimada fixed it
2) Ken and Shimada fixed it
3) All three involved fixed it
4) Shimada saw the flash knockout and simply called it
5) Ken for some weird reason decided to fix the fight himself without the other two

You have three pro wrestling guys in the ring in a match fixing org like PRIDE...but you also have Ken Shamrock whose chin and behavior has always been strange..something fishy was always going to happen

same with the Ken vs Fujita fight...Ken outboxes Fujita but then has a heart attack..This is not real fight..first of all I don't believe Ken would have outboxed Fujita (Both couldn't really box but Fujita's power/chin were from a different dimension, in a real fight he would have steamrolled ken) and secondly Ken has the "heart of a lion" and would never quit due to a little palpitation..

You should do a thread..."The crimes of Akira Maeda.."

You should stay in the ufc forums...

 

[gono btw]

I don't like Yuji that much as a ref. I remember back in 2012 he let Roger Huerta get hit head punted into the front row after he was clearly done fighting and I've always disliked him a bit since then.

A consummate pro, tho...



Would bring money back to Pride even when the fight was...over...

Spoiler