Media The Day 'White Bear' tried to hit a leg lock on... 'Ashikan Judan' (!?)... # 45

[gono btw]

This series 'The Day...' is about 'extraordinary' moments in NHB/Vale Tudo history.

Today: [UK Scene]


Was @ CAGE RAGE 25 'BRING IT ON'
[Mar 8, 2008 - London, England]

Masakazu 'Ashikan Judan' [“The Great Master of Leg Submissions”] Imanari vs Jean 'White Bear' Silva [BJJ/Capoeira]

Spoiler: Ashikan Judan vs White Bear - Full Fight

Everythin´ was goin´ well..
[White Bear took Imanari down, and got the top position, and was workin´ well],

> Edit: after watchin´the complete technical sequence: this part is inaccurate.
> See the Deconstruction of the complete technical sequence in the 13th post of this thread.

... and... then somethin´went wrong...




What...are...ya....doin´...Jean ?!?




No doubt, the kid´s got balls...

Spoiler: But...

...his heel´s gone...

Spoiler: Look who´s happy...

Spoiler: 'The Day...' Threads

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-death-master-stormed-into-the-vale-tudo-scene-24.3882431/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...enio-tadeu-climb-back-in-the-ring-34.3933271/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ly-really-intimate-with-the-pedro-30.3905323/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...d-to-face-2-opponents-in-the-ring-33.3924541/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-nilson-de-castro-chuteboxe-kept-flyin´outside-the-ring-32.3913987/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-teeth-kept-flyin´-ivc-31.3907739/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-machida-got-inspired-by-marcelo-tigre´s-drink-29.3901939/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-bjj-jorge-pereira-fearing-a-riot-27.3894033/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-the-hold-at-the-end-of-the-round-28.3896733/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ary-side-of-the-russian-nhb-scene-35.3853211/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yamasaki-got-inspired-to-become-a-ref-26.3885363/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...ck-b4-coning-mayweather-this-week-25.3863593/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-takeo-yano-george-gracie-both-went-lights-out-22.3881991/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-drago-felt-happy-wand-wasnt-cornerin´-the-other-side-21.3873849/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tank-inspired-coleman-20.3879835/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-little-volk-forgot-to-grapple-in-rings-19.3878575/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-want-usuta-to-tap-against-wallid-18.3877671/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-leg-lock-master-met-manos-de-piedra-36.3876141/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-coleman-went-full-roid-rage-in-brazil-17.3874387/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saad-muhammad-promised-a-ko-against-tamura-16.3875713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...k-hands-then-gave-ilyukhin-a-hand-15.3864713/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-kurmanov-the-boxer-submitted-ahmedov-the-jj-14.3874565/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-oleg-forgot-about-the-special-rule-13.3853539/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sergei-akinin-launched-a-new-mma-gear-12.3872407/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-henzo-had-to-make-alvarenga-tap-several-times-11.3871109/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-amar-suloev-mightymoused-oganov-10.3871769/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-couture-got-played-by-ilyukhin-9.3866571/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yvel-bit-barkalaev-volk-han-slapped-the-ref-8.3863115/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-tamura-forgot-to-shake-hands-with-yamamoto-7.3863509/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-marco-huas-went-full-babalu-toquinho-6.3852863/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-got-kimo-ed-badly-5.3831975/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-paulson-had-to-tap-with-his-foot-on-ronin´s-head-4.3830825/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rei-zulu-machida-ed-sergio-batarelli-3.3828423/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-igor-showed-his-genuine-side-2.3821765/
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https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-doc-had-to-check-the-cut-during-the-gnp-36.3941549/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...capoeira-nation-against-chuteboxe-37.3949335/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-38.3955161/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-yuji-shimada-daisuke-noguchi-did-ken-dirty-39.3961513/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-saku-crossed-paths-with-beat-takeshi-kitano-40.3730649/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-ufc-1-was-really-born-41.3964531/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-hoyce-became-world-lhw-champ-42.3972653/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-rings´-ring-became-a-barbershop-43.3981181/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-the-audience-pressured-rudimar-fedrigo-into-acceptin´-rei-zulu´s-challenge-44.3991669/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-enson-inoue-disgraced-himself-against-rei-zulu.3878069/

 

[EndlessCritic]

Everythin´ was goin´ well..
White Bear took Imanari down, and got the top position, and was workin´ well, and... then somethin´went wrong...


View attachment 628769 View attachment 628801

What...are...ya....doin´...Jean ?!?

What an odd thread.

Jean Silva's error was trying to throw a spinning kick at Imanari while Imanari was on the ground, thus putting himself in a leg lock. That was the idiotic move, not trying a counter leg lock.

 

[gono btw]

What an odd thread.

Jean Silva's error was trying to throw a spinning kick at Imanari while Imanari was on the ground, thus putting himself in a leg lock. That was the idiotic move, not trying a counter leg lock.

Dunno where I put it, but Im gonna try to find & post the whole fight & technical sequence.
IIRC Jean was the one who initiated the technical sequence, no counter leg lock.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Dunno where I put it, but Im gonna try to find & post the whole fight & technical sequence.
IIRC Jean was the one who initiated the technical sequence, no counter leg lock.

Well you're wrong.



Jean throws a leg kick, and Imanari falls to his back.

While Imanari is on his back, Jean Silva throws a goofy spinning back kick, literally giving Imanari the 50/50 position.

This thread should be about that kick.

 

[gono btw]

Well you're wrong.



Jean throws a leg kick, and Imanari falls to his back.

While Imanari is on his back, Jean Silva throws a goofy spinning back kick, literally giving Imanari the 50/50 position.

hmmm..yeah, your video is bigger & more complete than my gif indeed;
still I would say that Imanari´s leg lock was not 'locked' (see his grip on Jean´s legs) when Jean decided to pull back & go for his own attempt.
And that was the decidin´move imo: he should have defended it.

 

[EndlessCritic]

hmmm..yeah, your video is bigger & more complete than my gif indeed;
still I would say that Imanari´s leg lock was not 'locked' (see his grip on Jean´s legs) when Jean decided to pull back & go for his own attempt.
And that was the decidin´move imo: he should have defended it.

He does defend. Look at how at 2:21 he is holding Imanari's left foot with his right hand.

However Imanari off balances him, and Silva has no choice but to post on the ground with his right hand to avoid the sweep. The moment Silva puts his hand on the floor to post, Imanari reaps the knee, essentially sealing Silva's fate.

Further, rather than going for a counter leg lock while they're rolling, it's clear Jean is trying to use his left foot to strip Imanari's grip.

 

[gono btw]

He does defend. Look at how at 2:21 he is holding Imanari's left foot with his right hand.

However Imanari off balances him, and Silva has no choice but to post on the ground with his right hand to avoid the sweep. The moment Silva puts his hand on the floor to post, Imanari reaps the knee, essentially sealing Silva's fate.

Further, rather than going for a counter leg lock while they're rolling, it's clear Jean is trying to use his left foot to strip Imanari's grip.

Kindah disagree, mate.
Jean actually tried to play the 2 options: defensive & offensive (ie not losin´the top position essentially, b4 his sub attempt).

I´ll try to find & drop the technical sequence, but IIRC, Osawa was in the same position against Imanari, and unlike Jean gave up on his potential heel hook attempt to get closer to Imanari & defend the hold.

@ 2mn28-9: ya can see that Imanari´s grip is actually not that tight and ready to lose the hold, that´s where Jean had a potential opportunity to break the hold, even if it meant losin´the top position next.

 

[EndlessCritic]

@ 2mn28-9: ya can see that Imanari´s grip is actually not that tight and ready to lose the hold, that´s where Jean had a potential opportunity to break the hold, even if it meant losin´the top position next.

It's unclear what's happening in that sequence because Silva's right foot is strangely around Imanari's head initially. It appears the moment Imanari clears the foot from his head and into the 50/50 is the precise moment when Jean falls. But it's not obvious who is initiating what.

 

[gono btw]

It's unclear what's happening in that sequence because Silva's right foot is strangely around Imanari's head initially. It appears the moment Imanari clears the foot from his head and into the 50/50 is the precise moment when Jean falls. But it's not obvious who is initiating what.

Anyway, I edited the OP, indeed I had an inaccurate recollection of the very beginnin´of that technical sequence...

 

[Saku'sEar]

Imanari was one crazy guy.
His leglogs were on another level at the time.

 

[OneManOrgy]

Remember when Cage Rage would stream their events for free? I watched this fight live. Damn, it's been a while.

 

[HHJ]

i liked jean silva,i dunno why pride didnt use him more. I guess he was too small.

 

[gono btw]

What an odd thread.

Jean Silva's error was trying to throw a spinning kick at Imanari while Imanari was on the ground, thus putting himself in a leg lock. That was the idiotic move, not trying a counter leg lock.

I finally found the complete footage, better image & zooms.

Spoiler: Full Fight

This technical sequence is actually not that simple & can hardly be reduced to the initial part @ 2:21.
In other words, Silva´s fate was definitely not "sealed" at that moment.

The way I see it, it can be deconstructed in 5 subsequences :

Subsequence 1: Offensive Silva.



That capoeira kick could hardly be thread-worthy : spinnin´shit or not, it´s definitely not the 1st time that one of his opponents tries to blast him while he´s on the butt scoot position.
See:
Fabio Mello
(postin´the gif in the next post)

tbh between Silva´s move and watchin´ a completely terrified Bibiano (BJJ BB !) starin´ at Imanari in the butt scoot position, I side with White Bear.

Subsequence 2: Defensive Silva.



Here, Imanari´s forcin´ Silva to remain defensive, but the position is still not stable & he needs to drag him onto the ground to secure the hold.
Silva´s oblique position still makes it difficult to transition to a better hold onto Silva´s leg.

Subsequence 3: Offensive Silva.

Spoiler: Ashikan Judan vs Kenji Osawa

I said earlier in this thread that this technical sequence reminded me of the Ashikan Judan vs Kenji Osawa fight.
Checkin´:

Spoiler: Full Fight

@1mn43:

Imanari was actually in a much better position: better grip onto Osawa´s legs, stable position on the ground (not oblique).
Same dilemma for Osawa: his instinctive reaction is to play the 50/50 game & try to threaten with a heel hook.
But he´s late, acknowledges it (also realizes that, given Imanari´s expertise in this move, it´s indeed quite futile...) & gives up on his heel hook attempt (still spends some 8 sec to come to his senses tho...).
He then decides to get closer to Imanari & proceeds to slow his progression.
A few seconds later, he´s out of danger.

As I said earlier in this thread, @ 2mn28-9: ya can see that Imanari´s grip is actually not that tight and ready to lose the hold, that´s where Jean had a potential opportunity to break the hold, even if it meant losin´the top position next.
His options were then:
> settle for the 50/50 position & try to outsmart Imanari
or:
> acknowledge that, since the hold was broken, it was better to give up on the 50/50 position: give Imanari the dominant position, play the guard game, or even (given his agility as a Capoeirista) try to push him back with kicks.

Reminder: as far as I can remember, most if not all (except one: against Renato Tavares) submission wins came off his back.
The guard game was arguably a more realistic option than the 50/50 one.

Subsequence 4: Offensive Silva.



Now, it´s quite fascinatin´: they rolled, and obviously while rollin´ Imanari (given his experience in this technical move) didnt stop adjustin´ his hold.
Now pay attention to Silva´s posture: Imanari´s grip is no longer tight, he´s securin´Silva´s ankle with one hand.
Meanwhile, while Imanari´s readjustin´, here Silva has the opportunity to fight the hold with...kicks (pushin´or kickin´). Silva´s a capoeirista & agility, especially when it comes to kicks on the ground, is one of his strengths.
Note: here, Silva´s got the reach advantage > Silva is 5´8 vs 5´5 for Imanari.

Spoiler: Reach

His left leg can easily reach Imanari´s head.

But, again, Silva doesnt seem interested in focussin´ solely on defense, he´s still tryin´ to settle in the 50/50 position & counter Imanari with a heel hook of his own.


Subsequence 5: Offensive Silva.



Final sequence: while rollin´, Silva´s got his 2 hands on Imanari´s ankle & still tryin´ to get the submission.
He doesnt even seem interested in usin´his left leg to hit Ashikan´s head (even avoidin´it carefully...) or pushin´ him...


CONCLUSION:
White Bear´s insistence on playin´the 50/50 game with Ashikan Judan was extraordinary, not the flashy spinnin´ Capoeira kick that initiated this technical sequence.

 

[gono btw]

vs Fabio Mello:


View attachment 630167

 

[RDUBYA]

I was there for this, was literally

Silva was always great fun at CR...definitely had half a screw loose.

 

[InfinityLens]

Can Cage Rage from 2008 really NHB or Vale Tudo?

 

[gono btw]

Can Cage Rage from 2008 really NHB or Vale Tudo?

Spoiler

Poor Gono´s trapped...

 

[Richard Fannin]

Damn, what a thread!
I was a big fan of Jean Silva back in the Chute Boxe glory days, and his fight against Imanari was highly anticipated by my friends and I;
I was scared that he would never be the same again after that, that leglock was nasty;
(and kinda facepalm-worthy for the reasons you guys have talked about)

I've always had a soft spot for Jean; he was one of the only fighters with a capoeira background that would actually use his flashy kicks during fights, a real crowd pleaser
After following his "Cage Rage" stint, it was pretty cool to watch him represent his team & avenge his teammates when Chute Boxe went Gomi hunting in PRIDE.
(His fight with Paul Daley is also a classic in my book, a shame that it ended it such an anti-climactic way)

Enough rambling, I actually have a question for you Gono-sensei!
Would you happen to know where that "White Bear" nickname came from?
When it comes to physiques, It's a name that would suit guys like Sergei Kharitonov, Jeff Monson or this dude => better than tiny Jean IMHO, so I guess there is an explanation behind it...
I don't speak portuguese, so I never could dig as deep as I wished for the answer.

Thanks in advance if you happen to be in the know

 

[gono btw]

Enough rambling, I actually have a question for you Gono-sensei!
Would you happen to know where that "White Bear" nickname came from?
When it comes to physiques, It's a name that would suit guys like Sergei Kharitonov, Jeff Monson or this dude => better than tiny Jean IMHO, so I guess there is an explanation behind it...
I don't speak portuguese, so I never could dig as deep as I wished for the answer.

Thanks in advance if you happen to be in the know

As ya said, Capoeira was his 1st love, and this type of funny nicks (White Bear = Urso Branco) is pretty common in Capoeira.