Opinion The Cotradictions of the Conservative Mind

[SmilinDesperado]

Talking politics with my best friend, who has become a conservative as we have gotten older, can be exhausting. I'm sure he feels the same about me.

From my perspective, what I cannot figure out about him is this: he takes great pride in his patriotism, yet he spends almost all his time in our conversations arguing about why things that work EVERYWHERE ELSE in the world CANNOT work in America.

It's so strange to me how people who claim to love the country the most seem to think we are capable of accomplishing the least in terms of tangible action to improve our lives.

It's like a type of reverse American exceptionalism.

I can't understand this thinking, and I certainly cannot understand how it exists in someone who claims to be patriotic.

If you love your country, why don't you believe in it and your fellow citizens agency to make meaningful change?

Stupifying.

I'm sure everyone else can chime in with their own perceived contradictions. I'm really curious to see if a conservative can explain the above to me, though.

I think there's a lot of logical contradictions that exist on both sides, and that just comes down to being flawed and human.
I think one of the issues is that we often don't get to address the most basic points to get an understanding of EXACTLY what each other mean, and instead we skip forward to the topics.
Your definition of patriotism and his definition of patriotism are likely not the same. And if that's the starting point of the conversation then it can only go off the rails.
A lot of these conversations don't go anywhere because the important details aren't hammered out first, and the way in which we define success and what's important are different.
Or we think that the ONLY reason someone on the other side does or doesn't want something is THIS ONE DUMB REASON, when the reality is that there are probably multiple, competing reasons, some having more or less legitimacy than others.

On some level he may think America CAN'T do something, but even if America could do it, does he believe that America SHOULD do it? Does he think it's the government's responsibility to do something, or the individual? Is that thinking in all things, or in particular things?
There are dummies that aren't worth talking to because they're just partisan hypocrites, or just extremely dumb or ignorant. But, if we're talking about a friend that is otherwise reasonable and intelligent, I think some of the issue comes down to the details.

 

[deviake]

It’s all emotion based victim based politics

 

[MichiganMMA1978]

I love my retarded brother................

A quote from your brother?


Just playin sherbro

 

[deviake]

It's hard for me to have conversations with people who spout a lot of political views that are all completely false. Even if I take my phone out and start doing so in real time, they tend to get emotional and defensive.

I don't know how to converse with people who don't have a basic conception of reality and whose world view doesn't adjust in light of new information. I had to be quiet with someone recently because literally every single thing he said was wrong and I didn't feel like getting into it. He's still on the Trump train and thinks the tariffs are working. It's like he's heard zero of what this regime has actually been up to. I literally just stared silently and fell into the abyss. Cue "hello darkness my old friend".

Had a convo with another conservative (also a Trump voter) awhile back who keeps being continually wrong about everything. I mentioned cause and effect and how time/history is continuous and contributes to how we got here and he disagreed. How do I have a productive conversation with someone that doesn't think time/history are continuous? What do I do with that? It was baffling. I had to pick my battles because I otherwise get along with him but his politics and worldview are absolutely baffling with some sharp contradictions. He's one of the few who does listen, at least to some extent though. I think this is probably also cuz he respects me on a personal level and I can back my shit up and I'm not a cheerleader for the Democrats.

The last long argument I got in with a conservative was about evolution which ended with him accidentally defining it and me showing him the definition. I'd rather not put myself through that again.

My IRL conversations with conservatives resemble some of the nonsense here, except here MAGA are exposed to more viewpoints and sources so they have less excuses.

As time goes on I've more of an, "I'm not your mother" complex; you wanna believe dumb shit, go for it. I more and more lack the patience to care and I'm not likely to get through a steady diet of conservative propaganda. I'm also not real interested in arguing with libs who think Gavin Newsom or whoever is gonna save us. But at least we can agree that Trump sucks, women and rainbow people should have rights and shit needs to change.

 

[High Test With da Best]

You have to think of the 50 states much like 50 countries, that was the loose intention the founders originally had, a union of separate states with their own customs and rule of law and the like held together by a constitution and the Bill of Rights. Most states have GDP's that are applicable to entire countries and often populations as well. In that sense what works in other countries often would not be applicable on the national level, especially when you are comparing smaller and more homogenous countries. Now the central government in the U.S. has become exponentially more powerful since the Civil War and the culture has become more homogenized with advances in transportation and communication, but it's still a nation a lot larger and differently structured than others one can compare it to. I'm not saying something can or cannot work, just why it's a different ballgame in the U.S.
When you look at the two larger countries population wise one is a sort of communo-fascist and loosely capitalist dictatorship in China where the government has significantly more power over the populace and industry; and India is a massively overpopulated mess with a caste system and where there's a real divide between Hindu and Muslim populations even decades after the country had to split off a chunk of itself into Muslim majority Pakistan for those very same reasons. Pakistan is a mess with a significant inbreeding problem and Nigeria's no picnic either, especially with the recent attacks on Christians there. Indonesia and Brazil are a bit more similar to the U.S. in some ways but they are probably not the countries you're thinking of implementing programs from. I think you have to go all the way down to Japan to really get a country with a high population that isn't full of real glaring issues and they are a pretty ethnically and culturally homogenous population when compared to the U.S.

Great post.

On that point, let's ask TS @luckyshot why an exceptional state like California, the fifth largest economy in the world, can't figure out how to operate without a state income tax or a sales tax like measly little New Hampshire does?

 

[Cid]

What if anything? What if a bomb dropped on your head right now?

Well if you're remotely near the best what you said makes sense. Why look at the elite if you're in the elite. If you're not then it's kinda dumb.

Volkov doesn't need to make dramatic changes to his game and copy the elite because he's highly ranked and what he is doing is working for him.

Tai Tuivasa... well that's a different story.

 

[italiamusica]

It's so strange to me how people who claim to love the country the most seem to think we are capable of accomplishing the least in terms of tangible action to improve our lives.

This right here shows how stupid most of these conservatives are. Any topic from health care to gun control to climate change, their opinion on any of it is, "NOPE IT WON'T WORK HERE SO WE SHOULDN'T BOTHER CHANGING ANYTHING, NOTHING IN THE SLIGHTEST, NOT EVEN BABY STEPS TO CHANGES, JUST DO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING."

And yet these people claim to be the biggest patriots, that being a "true patriot" means living in a failing country where nothing changes because, "that's just how it is." It's insane.

 

[The Diplomat]

This totally wasn't a conversation that happened in your head...

The vague details and broad generalization really sold it.

A Canadian MAGAT obsessing over American politics on a karate forum.

Didn't I see you in Tennessee? I swear this is familiar.

 

[PhitePhan]

You're not mathing the math. If you subtracted government influence in toto from the late 19th/ early 20th century South, you'd be left with chattel slavery, not some state of racial justice.

The Southern gov't did Jim Crow because the Northern gov't kept the Southern commercial/ private sphere from doing what it really wanted, which was worse.

No, if you subtracted government influence black folks would have the opportunity fight against systemic racism that was foisted upon them by racists but enforced BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Black folks could have withheld their labor, voted equally, and defended themselves if it weren’t for government interference. It was government enacted LAWS that prevented black folks from gaining independence through use of government force and coercion. It’s not even debatable, yet you want to hand wave it for some reason… weird.

 

[deviake]

No, if you subtracted government influence black folks would have the opportunity fight against systemic racism that was foisted upon them by racists but enforced BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Black folks could have withheld their labor, voted equally, and defended themselves if it weren’t for government interference. It was government enacted LAWS that prevented black folks from gaining independence through use of government force and coercion. It’s not even debatable, yet you want to hand wave it for some reason… weird.

True but reductive. Governments do bad things =/= All government/everything government does bad. The alternative is no government or very minimal. We could cut everything the government does down and have an authoritarian shithole with no rights. Also, black people did a lot of resisting before slavery was abolished.

This is the thesis for american conservatives; because not all regulation is good, it's all bad, we just need to let the markets (who line our pockets, hemm) decide everything. Those are the talking points of private industry, of Capitalists. Without regulation, they ruthlessly exploit with no recourse. We know this, that is why they constantly fight constraints on their power and use their wealth to buy off politicians to rig the game in their favor.

The best bullshit has an element of truth to it.

 

[luckyshot]

No, if you subtracted government influence black folks would have the opportunity fight against systemic racism that was foisted upon them by racists but enforced BY THE GOVERNMENT.

Black folks could have withheld their labor, voted equally, and defended themselves if it weren’t for government interference. It was government enacted LAWS that prevented black folks from gaining independence through use of government force and coercion. It’s not even debatable, yet you want to hand wave it for some reason… weird.

"Withhold their labor..." lol. Gee, why didn't they think of that?

 

[Popsaregood230]

Socialist policies would work if we had a trustworthy government. Capitalist policies would work if we had populist regulations and the government wasn't in bed with the oligarchs. Somewhere in the middle lies the "least worst" government. TLDR: The government will always be the enemy because psychopaths are the most efficient ladder climbers.