The Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua

HHJ said:
So?

Some people were older and had alot of injuries too.
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In order to avoid the nauseating mountain of excuses why Pride legends underperformed outside of Pride why not just say different time and keep it pushing
 
OneOfOne said:
The argument for Chuck & Wanderlei over Shogun is simple. Both Chuck and Wanderlei were more accomplished and had a longer run of dominance than Shogun did. And honestly it's not even close. Here is the Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua.

Accomplishments

Wanderlei - 6 Major World Titles
Liddell - 5 Major World Titles
Shogun - 2 Major World Titles

Significant Wins

Chuck 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Paul Jones, Murilo Bustamante, Guy Mezger, Vitor Belfort, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Randy Couture, Renato Sobral, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva

Top 10 MWs: Jeremy Horn, Amar Suloev, Jose-Landi Jons

Other Notable Wins: Kevin Randleman, Renato Sobral 1, Alistair Overeem

Wanderlei 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Adrian Serrano, Dan Henderson, Kazushi Sakuraba, Rampage Jackson, Yuki Kondo, Rampage Jackson, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Ricardo Arona, Keith Jardine

Top 20 LHWs: Eugene Jackson, Kiyoshi Tamura, Hidehiko Yoshida 1, Hidehiko Yoshida 2

Other Notable Wins: Guy Mezger, Kazushi Sakuraba 2

Shogun 10 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Rampage Jackson, Antonio Rogerio, Alistair Overeem, Ricardo Arona, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Alistair Overeem, Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida, Forrest Griffin

Other Notable Wins: Antonio Rogerio 2

Reigns of Dominance

Not only does Chuck and Wanderlei have more titles and more significant wins they each had a much longer reign of dominance than Shogun did. Shogun reign of dominance was a 16-2 run that included 6 top 10 wins and a Grand Prix title. After Pride he had couple of moments of success but no sustained dominance. Now let's contrast that with Wanderlei and Chuck's dominant runs.

Wanderlei put together a 25-2 run at LHW during his prime. This included 8 top 10 wins, 4 top 20 wins, and 15 significant wins overall. During this stretch he also won 5 Pride MW titles and a Pride MW Grand Prix for a total of 6 major titles. This is one of the most dominant runs in MMA history from any weight class. Meanwhile Liddell put together 20-3 run that included 9 top 10 wins with 15 significant wins overall. He was able to avenge 2 of those losses while also picking up 5 UFC titles. Both Wanderlei and Liddell were the face of their respective orgs and possessed an air of invincibility at their peaks.

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There you have it. Chuck and Wanderlei clear Shogun by every significant metric. I see a lot of people on this forum just reflexively rank Shogun as the #2 LHW of all time based on absolutely nothing but their love and affinity for him. But when you look at their resumes and careers Shogun has 0 arguments over Chuck and Wanderlei. The highest you can rank Shogun is #4 behind Jones, Chuck, and Wanderlei. You could also make an argument for Rampage to be ahead of him as well.

I don't think this is as much of a case of Shogun being overrated but rather Chuck and Wanderlei being underrated. It's time we give Chuck and Wanderlei their proper due. They are the #2 and #3 ranked LHWs of all time and it's not close.
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You've missed a lot of notable wins for Shogun
 
jeff7b9 said:
Ok, but how many of those title wins on Wandys resume would have been on Shoguns resume if he didn't willingly play 2nd fiddle at a time when he was arguably as good or better than Wandy?


Shogun ran through the best of Pride MW division during the end of prideFC. That was champion quality opposition as far as I am concerned.
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When Wand was a dominant champ Shogun was fighting in the IFC as a skinny kid , he hardly played 2nd fiddle as his break out year was 2006 around the time Wand started to decline.
 
Big Tuppy Hole said:
When Wand was a dominant champ Shogun was fighting in the IFC as a skinny kid , he hardly played 2nd fiddle as his break out year was 2006 around the time Wand started to decline.
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Furthermore when Wand was champ Shogun got beat by Babalu
 
OneOfOne said:
The argument for Chuck & Wanderlei over Shogun is simple. Both Chuck and Wanderlei were more accomplished and had a longer run of dominance than Shogun did. And honestly it's not even close. Here is the Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua.

Accomplishments

Wanderlei - 6 Major World Titles
Liddell - 5 Major World Titles
Shogun - 2 Major World Titles

Significant Wins

Chuck 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Paul Jones, Murilo Bustamante, Guy Mezger, Vitor Belfort, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Randy Couture, Renato Sobral, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva

Top 10 MWs: Jeremy Horn, Amar Suloev, Jose-Landi Jons

Other Notable Wins: Kevin Randleman, Renato Sobral 1, Alistair Overeem

Wanderlei 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Adrian Serrano, Dan Henderson, Kazushi Sakuraba, Rampage Jackson, Yuki Kondo, Rampage Jackson, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Ricardo Arona, Keith Jardine

Top 20 LHWs: Eugene Jackson, Kiyoshi Tamura, Hidehiko Yoshida 1, Hidehiko Yoshida 2

Other Notable Wins: Guy Mezger, Kazushi Sakuraba 2

Shogun 10 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Rampage Jackson, Antonio Rogerio, Alistair Overeem, Ricardo Arona, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Alistair Overeem, Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida, Forrest Griffin

Other Notable Wins: Antonio Rogerio 2

Reigns of Dominance

Not only does Chuck and Wanderlei have more titles and more significant wins they each had a much longer reign of dominance than Shogun did. Shogun reign of dominance was a 16-2 run that included 6 top 10 wins and a Grand Prix title. After Pride he had couple of moments of success but no sustained dominance. Now let's contrast that with Wanderlei and Chuck's dominant runs.

Wanderlei put together a 25-2 run at LHW during his prime. This included 8 top 10 wins, 4 top 20 wins, and 15 significant wins overall. During this stretch he also won 5 Pride MW titles and a Pride MW Grand Prix for a total of 6 major titles. This is one of the most dominant runs in MMA history from any weight class. Meanwhile Liddell put together 20-3 run that included 9 top 10 wins with 15 significant wins overall. He was able to avenge 2 of those losses while also picking up 5 UFC titles. Both Wanderlei and Liddell were the face of their respective orgs and possessed an air of invincibility at their peaks.

------

There you have it. Chuck and Wanderlei clear Shogun by every significant metric. I see a lot of people on this forum just reflexively rank Shogun as the #2 LHW of all time based on absolutely nothing but their love and affinity for him. But when you look at their resumes and careers Shogun has 0 arguments over Chuck and Wanderlei. The highest you can rank Shogun is #4 behind Jones, Chuck, and Wanderlei. You could also make an argument for Rampage to be ahead of him as well.

I don't think this is as much of a case of Shogun being overrated but rather Chuck and Wanderlei being underrated. It's time we give Chuck and Wanderlei their proper due. They are the #2 and #3 ranked LHWs of all time and it's not close.
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Chuck was never the best in the world at any point in time. Wanderlei and Shogun arguably were.
 
Mind Mine said:
In order to avoid the nauseating mountain of excuses why Pride legends underperformed outside of Pride why not just say different time and keep it pushing
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:: Pride theme ::
All roads lead to Saitama,that's why
 
Mind Mine said:
I don’t know why people compare Pride legacy to UFC legacy constantly on sherdog. It’s just not the same. Many did great in Pride and mediocre in the UFC/Strikeforce. Some the opposite.
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PRIDE/Fedor fans are trying to make JMMA relevant today. Yes, it played a really big role in the sport at the time but it is a different era in terms of rules, commissions, testing, training, weight cutting and much more.
 
Fight Professor said:
PRIDE/Fedor fans are trying to make JMMA relevant today. Yes, it played a really big role in the sport at the time but it is a different era in terms of rules, commissions, testing, training, weight cutting and much more.
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Id say its new age fans who are trying to make MMA from the past irrelevant so they can prop up less accomplished and less successful current fighters over the established mma greats.
 
Using world titles as a standard is dumb.

Wanderlei and Chuck were marketed as their promotions top draws. Shogun wasn't.


Shogun was the best LHW in Pride and had won the Pride LHW GP. He didn't have the title because....him and Wanderlei did not fight. They were teammates.

Wanderlei even lost a fight as champion to Arona. Chuck lost to Rampage when he joined a PRIDE gp. Rua was basically unbeatable in PRIDE only losing via injury if I can recall. In the UFC he was more rocky, but still ultimately had some marquee wins as good if not better than any win Chuck or Silva ever got.

Chuck and Silva were champs at the same time, so obviously it's easier to have a world title when there are two of them. Rua won his belt when UFC had the undisputed best 205 division by beating an undefeated champion. His reign was cut short because the GOAT was an injury replacement.

Jon Jones would have destroyed Silva just the same as he had everyone from their era.
 
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