The Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua

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OneOfOne

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The argument for Chuck & Wanderlei over Shogun is simple. Both Chuck and Wanderlei were more accomplished and had a longer run of dominance than Shogun did. And honestly it's not even close. Here is the Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua.

Accomplishments

Wanderlei - 6 Major World Titles
Liddell - 5 Major World Titles
Shogun - 2 Major World Titles

Significant Wins

Chuck 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Paul Jones, Murilo Bustamante, Guy Mezger, Vitor Belfort, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Randy Couture, Renato Sobral, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva

Top 10 MWs: Jeremy Horn, Amar Suloev, Jose-Landi Jons

Other Notable Wins: Kevin Randleman, Renato Sobral 1, Alistair Overeem

Wanderlei 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Adrian Serrano, Dan Henderson, Kazushi Sakuraba, Rampage Jackson, Yuki Kondo, Rampage Jackson, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Ricardo Arona, Keith Jardine

Top 20 LHWs: Eugene Jackson, Kiyoshi Tamura, Hidehiko Yoshida 1, Hidehiko Yoshida 2

Other Notable Wins: Guy Mezger, Kazushi Sakuraba 2

Shogun 10 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Rampage Jackson, Antonio Rogerio, Alistair Overeem, Ricardo Arona, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Alistair Overeem, Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida, Forrest Griffin

Other Notable Wins: Antonio Rogerio 2

Reigns of Dominance

Not only does Chuck and Wanderlei have more titles and more significant wins they each had a much longer reign of dominance than Shogun did. Shogun reign of dominance was a 16-2 run that included 6 top 10 wins and a Grand Prix title. After Pride he had couple of moments of success but no sustained dominance. Now let's contrast that with Wanderlei and Chuck's dominant runs.

Wanderlei put together a 25-2 run at LHW during his prime. This included 8 top 10 wins, 4 top 20 wins, and 15 significant wins overall. During this stretch he also won 5 Pride MW titles and a Pride MW Grand Prix for a total of 6 major titles. This is one of the most dominant runs in MMA history from any weight class. Meanwhile Liddell put together 20-3 run that included 9 top 10 wins with 15 significant wins overall. He was able to avenge 2 of those losses while also picking up 5 UFC titles. Both Wanderlei and Liddell were the face of their respective orgs and possessed an air of invincibility at their peaks.

------

There you have it. Chuck and Wanderlei clear Shogun by every significant metric. I see a lot of people on this forum just reflexively rank Shogun as the #2 LHW of all time based on absolutely nothing but their love and affinity for him. But when you look at their resumes and careers Shogun has 0 arguments over Chuck and Wanderlei. The highest you can rank Shogun is #4 behind Jones, Chuck, and Wanderlei. You could also make an argument for Rampage to be ahead of him as well.

I don't think this is as much of a case of Shogun being overrated but rather Chuck and Wanderlei being underrated. It's time we give Chuck and Wanderlei their proper due. They are the #2 and #3 ranked LHWs of all time and it's not close.
 
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Davidjacksonjones said:
Curious where you would place DC at LHW
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DC went 7-1-1 with 3-4 significant wins and 3 Major World Titles. With such a short yet dominant run it's really tough to place at LHW. I personally value sustained success and longevity more than short dominant runs. Taking that into account I would put DC behind Jones, Wanderlei, Chuck, Shogun, Rampage, Tito, Hendo, Machida, and Rashad. I think you could make an argument for DC at the 10th spot.
 
OneOfOne said:
DC went 7-1-1 with 3-4 significant wins and 3 Major World Titles. With such a short yet dominant run it's really tough to place at LHW. I personally value sustained success and longevity more than short dominant runs. Taking that into account I would put DC behind Jones, Wanderlei, Chuck, Shogun, Rampage, Tito, Hendo, Machida, and Rashad. I think you could make an argument for DC at the 10th spot.
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DC has had an overall better career than all of them except Jones and Hendo.

I think Shogun was better at his peak than either Chuck or Wand but as far as their careers go I would put Chuck and Wand ahead of Shogun.
 
Gotosleepho said:
DC has had an overall better career than all of them except Jones and Hendo.

I think Shogun was better at his peak than either Chuck or Wand but as far as their careers go I would put Chuck and Wand ahead of Shogun.
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DC had a better overall care. Sure. LHW career? Nahhh.

I would rate peak Wanderlei, Chuck, and Shogun similarly. I don't think you can really make a strong case that Shogun was better than they were at their peaks.
 
Too hard for me to rank LHWs, there's many arguments for each. We all know Jones #1. Not sure why so many put Shogun so highly his career was very wavy with ups and downs. Back then on sherdog we used to debate between the rock paper scissors of rampage chuck wanderlei. Shogun wasn't even part of the argument before he beat Machida.
 
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Ok, but how many of those title wins on Wandys resume would have been on Shoguns resume if he didn't willingly play 2nd fiddle at a time when he was arguably as good or better than Wandy?


Shogun ran through the best of Pride MW division during the end of prideFC. That was champion quality opposition as far as I am concerned.
 
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It's difficult to say because résumé counts for everything but proves almost nothing at the same time(oxymoron I know), if you're talking about who is better on a talent basis.

Chuck is the most accomplished in terms of his UFC reign and also had some success in Pride.

Wanderlei has bags of success in Pride, some success in the UFC.

Shogun was highly successful in both, albeit not as successful as Chuck in the UFC and not as successful as Wand in Pride, but was the most talented of the three in terms of ability imo.
 
Tweak896 said:
Too hard for me to rank LHWs, there's many arguments for each. We all know Jones #1. Not sure why so many put Shogun so highly his career was very wavy with ups and downs. Back then on sherdog we used to debate between the rock paper scissors of rampage chuck wanderlei. Shogun wasn't even part of the argument before he beat Machida.
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Good times lol.
The Chuck fans would always remind Wanderlei fans of the Tito Ortiz loss and the Wanderlei fans would always remind Chuck fans of the Rampage loss. That period was never-ending lol.
 
OneOfOne said:
The argument for Chuck & Wanderlei over Shogun is simple. Both Chuck and Wanderlei were more accomplished and had a longer run of dominance than Shogun did. And honestly it's not even close. Here is the Case for Chuck and Wanderlei > Shogun Rua.

Accomplishments

Wanderlei - 6 Major World Titles
Liddell - 5 Major World Titles
Shogun - 2 Major World Titles

Significant Wins

Chuck 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Paul Jones, Murilo Bustamante, Guy Mezger, Vitor Belfort, Tito Ortiz, Randy Couture, Randy Couture, Renato Sobral, Tito Ortiz, Wanderlei Silva

Top 10 MWs: Jeremy Horn, Amar Suloev, Jose-Landi Jons

Other Notable Wins: Kevin Randleman, Renato Sobral 1, Alistair Overeem

Wanderlei 16 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Adrian Serrano, Dan Henderson, Kazushi Sakuraba, Rampage Jackson, Yuki Kondo, Rampage Jackson, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Ricardo Arona, Keith Jardine

Top 20 LHWs: Eugene Jackson, Kiyoshi Tamura, Hidehiko Yoshida 1, Hidehiko Yoshida 2

Other Notable Wins: Guy Mezger, Kazushi Sakuraba 2

Shogun 10 Significant Wins:
Top 10 LHWs: Rampage Jackson, Antonio Rogerio, Alistair Overeem, Ricardo Arona, Kazuhiro Nakamura, Alistair Overeem, Chuck Liddell, Lyoto Machida, Forrest Griffin

Other Notable Wins: Antonio Rogerio 2

Reigns of Dominance

Not only does Chuck and Wanderlei have more titles and more significant wins they each had a much longer reign of dominance than Shogun did. Shogun reign of dominance was a 16-2 run that included 6 top 10 wins and a Grand Prix title. After Pride he had couple of moments of success but no sustained dominance. Now let's contrast that with Wanderlei and Chuck's dominant runs.

Wanderlei put together a 25-2 run at LHW during his prime. This included 8 top 10 wins, 4 top 20 wins, and 15 significant wins overall. During this stretch he also won 5 Pride MW titles and a Pride MW Grand Prix for a total of 6 major titles. This is one of the most dominant runs in MMA history from any weight class. Meanwhile Liddell put together 20-3 run that included 9 top 10 wins with 15 significant wins overall. He was able to avenge 2 of those losses while also picking up 5 UFC titles. Both Wanderlei and Liddell were the face of their respective orgs and possessed an air of invincibility at their peaks.

------

There you have it. Chuck and Wanderlei clear Shogun by every significant metric. I see a lot of people on this forum just reflexively rank Shogun as the #2 LHW of all time based on absolutely nothing but their love and affinity for him. But when you look at their resumes and careers Shogun has 0 arguments over Chuck and Wanderlei. The highest you can rank Shogun is #4 behind Jones, Chuck, and Wanderlei. You could also make an argument for Rampage to be ahead of him as well.

I don't think this is as much of a case of Shogun being overrated but rather Chuck and Wanderlei being underrated. It's time we give Chuck and Wanderlei their proper due. They are the #2 and #3 ranked LHWs of all time and it's not close.
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Chael was wins over both Shogun and Wanda.

Chuck ducked him.
 
All three of them were absolute monsters during their runs. I largely agree with the OP. Wand is a top 3 favourite fighter of all time for me, so I’d put him at number 1, but that is just personal preference.
 
Nope.

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Mind Mine said:
I don’t know why people compare Pride legacy to UFC legacy constantly on sherdog. It’s just not the same. Many did great in Pride and mediocre in the UFC/Strikeforce. Some the opposite.
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What great Pride fighters did mediocre in UFC/Strikeforce? The only one I can think of is Crocop. Everyone else I can think of came over and took their spot at or near the top of the division.
 
all debatable. it's also quality of competition and chuck didn't really have the greatest opponents. he had one of the weakest title reigns amongst the so-called legends in terms of that.
 
PRIDE was the top promotion at the time, so Shogun's dominance means a lot more than Chuck's dominance.
 
This is so disrespectful of one of the most best fighters ever.

I'm going to discuss this with my mom's friend when we watch the fight tonight. He is the biggest Shogun fan and he's probably going to get super mad. lol.
 
OneOfOne said:
DC went 7-1-1 with 3-4 significant wins and 3 Major World Titles. With such a short yet dominant run it's really tough to place at LHW. I personally value sustained success and longevity more than short dominant runs. Taking that into account I would put DC behind Jones, Wanderlei, Chuck, Shogun, Rampage, Tito, Hendo, Machida, and Rashad. I think you could make an argument for DC at the 10th spot.
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DC behind Rashad? Behind Hendo? What DC accomplished at LHW and HW no one else has done except Jones. Longevity is important which DC showed even if it was split between two weight classes. Not sure if you are trolling, but im going to assume that you were.

On topic. Most of us older MMA fans were or have been fans of Shogun. Amazing fighter by yesterday’s standard, perhaps a bit lacking today. I feel that the bad knees excuse is valid to some extent, but also a poor excuse for not preparing. Coming in fat and gassing can’t be excused by bad knees, you can work on your cardio regardless and your diet isn’t affected by your knees. All in all I’d probably put Wand ahead of Shogun purely due to his achievements in Pride, though if Shogun would have been given the same opportunities maybe he would have performed similarly or even better.
 
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