Economy The Capitalism Crumble

[Sinister]

This is how business is set up in Macau. Macau has casinos, and some malls with boutique stores. Very little in terms of bars, restaurants, night clubs, and shows. Basically casinos and places to buy luxury items if you win. Honestly, I didn't care for the place and would never want to go back.

The first time I noticed this trend was before Vegas really started to sell its soul. It was in Key West. When I was a kid going to The Keys in Florida was a big deal if you liked the ocean. My wife and I went a long time ago while visiting my Mother and it was INCREDIBLY tourist-trappy. Everything was magnificently overpriced, and lower in quality. She was pretty underwhelmed with that aspect of the Atlantic Ocean as a California Native lol. We got a nice room literally 50ft from the beach and just hanging out at the room was more fun because there wasnt a ton of pressure to buy sh*t or pay for overpriced experiences.

Vegas turned around and did the exact same thing. It's no longer a place where anyone is made to feel like Royalty. It's a place where only actual Royalty are welcome.

 

[joy2day]

Capitalism sucks in a lot of ways, but it continues because everything else sucks far more. It is basically the only economic system still standing in any meaningful way.
The same could be said of democracy as a form of government (broadly speaking, including a democratic republic or any form of democracy). Until someone comes up with better economic and governmental systems, we are left with trying to make modifications to what we have to make them work as best we can.

We obviously cannot have too much hubris given western civilization could fall from inner division, but we are still SUPER privileged to live in America right now. The vast majority of people have far lesser opportunities than we do living in Africa, China, Central/South America, the Middle East, or India where most of the world's population live.

Black wealth in the US is more than double what it is in the whole continent of Africa, which is astonishing when you think about the implications. They are still living in shacks with no running water or electricity in a lot of places in Africa.

Even the average person below the poverty line in the US has a cell phone, computer or tablet, car, and air-conditioned living space (a far cry from the poor everywhere else or in the American past). This could be changing, but it hasn't yet.

 

[DragRacer]

Last time I was there for the F1 race, the company paid for my flight, room and race entry, and I still managed to spend almost $500/day just on food, transportation and tips. No drugs, whores and didn’t buy anything. Wild.

I can’t believe how expensive the city is getting every time I go. I used to be able to catch a round trip flight for 60-100 bucks and a room at circus circus during the off season for 30-40.

 

[aerius]

Yes that's definitely part of it. But the underlying question, as indicated in my reply above, is why does this sort of thing keep catching corporations (whose CEO's are the most politically connected class of people) by surprise? And when it does, why do they immediately try to pad their profit margins by doing things that are really really stupid? Are we to believe they had no clue this was coming? Did every Casino executive in Vegas look at Atlantic City and go: "Yeah but, we built different!!" Or are we dealing with a class of people we shouldn't depend on?

That's where I'm leaning.

The unspoken assumption in capitalism is that the rich people who own & run all those corporations are wealthy & powerful because they're smarter, harder working, and "better" than the rest of us, which is why they're often referred to as "elites". It's therefore assumed that they understand what's happening in the world and can plan for various contingencies to keep the money rolling in.

Unfortunately that assumption is pure bullshit, the vast majority of them are no better than some trashy redneck who won the lottery jackpot and their financial & operations planning (or lack thereof) reflects this. Once they get to play with some real money they get intoxicated by the power and start drinking their own kool-aid, the results are predictable; prices go up a ton, quality goes down, customer pool dries up because normal people can't justify it anymore.

The way I see the it the US corporate class was raised on 80s "greed & money is good" propaganda and they all run their companies accordingly. If profit is maximized then everything is automatically better because that's what capitalist economic theory states, and anyone who disagrees gets labelled as a communist. All they know is how to run scams and turn short term profits.

 

[Sinister]

Capitalism sucks in a lot of ways, but it continues because everything else sucks far more. It is basically the only economic system still standing in any meaningful way.
The same could be said of democracy as a form of government (broadly speaking, including a democratic republic or any form of democracy). Until someone comes up with better economic and governmental systems, we are left with trying to make modifications to what we have to make them work as best we can.

We obviously cannot have too much hubris given western civilization could fall from inner division, but we are still SUPER privileged to live in America right now. The vast majority of people have far lesser opportunities than we do living in Africa, China, Central/South America, the Middle East, or India where most of the world's population live.

Black wealth in the US is more than double what it is in the whole continent of Africa, which is astonishing when you think about the implications. They are still living in shacks with no running water or electricity in a lot of places in Africa.

Even the average person below the poverty line in the US has a cell phone, computer or tablet, car, and air-conditioned living space (a far cry from the poor everywhere else or in the American past). This could be changing, but it hasn't yet.

I dont blanketly agree everything else sucks worse. Capitalism and imperialism have been too thoroughly linked for me to just buy that outright. I mean that's one of the key sources if African poverty. Since when did Africa own it's own resources? And I dont subscribe to the fallacy of abundance. You cannot pay for food but you're in perpetual debt with your phone.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

Capitalism sucks in a lot of ways, but it continues because everything else sucks far more. It is basically the only economic system still standing in any meaningful way.
The same could be said of democracy as a form of government (broadly speaking, including a democratic republic or any form of democracy). Until someone comes up with better economic and governmental systems, we are left with trying to make modifications to what we have to make them work as best we can.

We obviously cannot have too much hubris given western civilization could fall from inner division, but we are still SUPER privileged to live in America right now. The vast majority of people have far lesser opportunities than we do living in Africa, China, Central/South America, the Middle East, or India where most of the world's population live.

Black wealth in the US is more than double what it is in the whole continent of Africa, which is astonishing when you think about the implications. They are still living in shacks with no running water or electricity in a lot of places in Africa.

Even the average person below the poverty line in the US has a cell phone, computer or tablet, car, and air-conditioned living space (a far cry from the poor everywhere else or in the American past). This could be changing, but it hasn't yet.

What do you see China as?

If they are capitalist they aren’t communist, but everyone on the right hates them for being “the communist party of china” etc.

The Chinese themselves say they are on a “capitalist road to communism” - That was the anti-Maoist philosophy that came into fashion after Mao

 

[joy2day]

What do you see China as?

If they are capitalist they aren’t communist, but everyone on the right hates them for being “the communist party of china” etc.

The Chinese themselves say they are on a “capitalist road to communism” - That was the anti-Maoist philosophy that came into fashion after Mao

China is both, they switched to far more of a market system of economics.

 

[joy2day]

I dont blanketly agree everything else sucks worse. Capitalism and imperialism have been too thoroughly linked for me to just buy that outright. I mean that's one of the key sources if African poverty. Since when did Africa own it's own resources? And I dont subscribe to the fallacy of abundance. You cannot pay for food but you're in perpetual debt with your phone.

Detail the economic systems that have functioned well without capitalism, and the forms of government that have succeeded better than democracy.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

China is both, they switched to far more of a market system of economics.

I don’t think a country can be both.

If you’re communist you aren’t capitalist. At least if the definitions of those words mean anything.

 

[joy2day]

I don’t think a country can be both.

If you’re communist you aren’t capitalist. At least if the definitions of those words mean anything.

China is governed by the Communist Party (so politically “communist”), but it also allows and encourages market-based, profit-oriented economic activity (so economically “capitalist”). The state still owns or heavily regulates key sectors while permitting private businesses, foreign investment, and competition elsewhere — this mixed system is often referred to as a “socialist market economy” or “party-state capitalism.”

 

[aerius]

Detail the economic systems that have functioned well without capitalism, and the forms of government that have succeeded better than democracy.

Name a democratic capitalist nation which has accomplished this or better in any 25 year period.

 

[Aegon Spengler]

China is governed by the Communist Party (so politically “communist”), but it also allows and encourages market-based, profit-oriented economic activity (so economically “capitalist”). The state still owns or heavily regulates key sectors while permitting private businesses, foreign investment, and competition elsewhere — this mixed system is often referred to as a “socialist market economy” or “party-state capitalism.”

Weird.

I suppose the U.S. system is more state-capitalist too then. Since the government is the largest employer and subsidies/tax breaks/bailouts basically pick winners instead of the free market.

Also votes are essentially meaningless in terms of making any major structural changes, except in terms of dismantling programs that protect people from corporations.

 

[joy2day]

Name a democratic capitalist nation which has accomplished this or better in any 25 year period.

lol you realize it made those gains from being an economically broken country due to communism, right? They were literally going hungry and never were an established democracy.

 

[Zazen]

Capitalism sucks in a lot of ways, but it continues because everything else sucks far more. It is basically the only economic system still standing in any meaningful way.
The same could be said of democracy as a form of government (broadly speaking, including a democratic republic or any form of democracy). Until someone comes up with better economic and governmental systems, we are left with trying to make modifications to what we have to make them work as best we can.

We obviously cannot have too much hubris given western civilization could fall from inner division, but we are still SUPER privileged to live in America right now. The vast majority of people have far lesser opportunities than we do living in Africa, China, Central/South America, the Middle East, or India where most of the world's population live.

Black wealth in the US is more than double what it is in the whole continent of Africa, which is astonishing when you think about the implications. They are still living in shacks with no running water or electricity in a lot of places in Africa.

Even the average person below the poverty line in the US has a cell phone, computer or tablet, car, and air-conditioned living space (a far cry from the poor everywhere else or in the American past). This could be changing, but it hasn't yet.

This is anecdotal but not sure I’d include China with places like Africa and India. Everyone I taught over there now has their own homes, families, and careers. Things seem to be okay, biggest issue is probably young people all trying to compete for the same white collar careers which any type of labor job or technical skill is frowned upon but that’s more of a cultural issue that needs to be addressed

 

[aerius]

lol you realize it made those gains from being an economically broken country due to communism, right? They were literally going hungry and never were an established democracy.

And? They managed to put themselves back together and regain their status as a superpower. How many nations have raised themselves out of poverty with capitalism & democracy in the past 50 years? How about the last 100?

 

[joy2day]

Weird.

I suppose the U.S. system is more state-capitalist too then. Since the government is the largest employer and subsidies/tax breaks/bailouts basically pick winners instead of the free market.

Also votes are essentially meaningless in terms of making any major structural changes, except in terms of dismantling programs that protect people from corporations.

Agree to some degree, although you overstate the case. Winners come from a combination of a lot more factors than just subsidies/tax breaks/bailouts.

Voting has its limitations, but it is not meaningless. There are still important differences in the choices we make for our leaders.

 

[Zazen]

I think you just need to tax the ultra wealthy a bit more, make sure money is out of politics, provide healthcare to all and a few other things to get back on track. I don’t understand the idea that capitalism is bad though. China was pretty shitty until they opened up their markets and embrace more capitalism. People say they want socialism but what successful nations are there under that system? I think a lot of young people will point to Denmark and Sweden but I don’t feel those are socialist countries

 

[lowlife]

I think you just need to tax the ultra wealthy a bit more, make sure money is out of politics, provide healthcare to all and a few other things to get back on track. I don’t understand the idea that capitalism is bad though. China was pretty shitty until they opened up their markets and embrace more capitalism. People say they want socialism but what successful nations are there under that system? I think a lot of young people will point to Denmark and Sweden but I don’t feel those are socialist countries

I don't understand why we can't take certain ideas from certain ideologies and make it work. We already have socialism in this country anyway, it's just corporate ie bank bailouts, airline bailouts, subsidies for Elon, etc etc. When it comes to providing social services for the citizens that are actually paying their share of taxes however, "conservatives" start crying about communism and China lol. We need to start thinking beyond labels because the reality of life is not as simple as some all encompassing label. imo.

 

[joy2day]

And? They managed to put themselves back together and regain their status as a superpower. How many nations have raised themselves out of poverty with capitalism & democracy in the past 50 years? How about the last 100?

I'm not actually going to type a long argument about the general principles of this argument, but I will point out that under Putin, Russia allows market activity, private businesses, and foreign investment to operate—but the state retains tight control over strategic sectors, key industries, and regulatory power. The result is a hybrid system: a state-capitalist or “managed market” economy, where markets exist but the government and oligarchs play a dominant role.

So they already have market forces at work. If you are thinking they are flourishing without a democracy, you need to take a closer look at Russia that goes beyond numbers you saw on Tik Tok or wherever you got that.

 

[filthybliss]

What is the alternative? Socialism?

Every other socialist experiment has transformed into a Vanguard Party controlling the means of production and treating the working class as too dim to know what is best for themselves.

I think a hybrid economy where healthcare, childcare, etc. are nationalized and the general market remains is ideal.