Thai Clinch: How to counter this defense?

[Cardio]

When I go in for the clinch or sink the clinch, this one fighter (actually 1 of my trainers) throws an insta-knee straight into my solar plexus. He is well versed in MMA and clinchwork, and I find this defense very hard to counter, any suggestions?

Btw, I don't really have time to yank him to the side, or if I try the knee still flies.

 

[>>jonutarr>]

try keep close, get the under hooks and then hip throw
whatch Yoshida vs Silva 1 or 2 for an example

 

[CowboyPete]

If he's one of your trainers... ask him.

 

[Ian Coe]

from a thai boxing POV, I would say either jam the leg or depending where your hands are throw a elbow into his collar bone/shoulder to get him off balance.
Instead of trying to yank him aside, try and bait him every now and then and when he falls for it, if you have him clamped tight, spin off as he has one foot in the air (in the supporting legs direction)

To cover all the bases you could also (if far enough out) push one hand into his navel area as he raises his knee (defense against long range knees, but you need to sink the hand in)

 

[Matt Thornton]

Shogun and Ninja showed us some SICK moves from the Thai clinch.

Okay, I know this is semi-unrelated to your question, but try this defense against a Thai clinch:

-He has both hands on your head in the neck clinch, your hands are on the outside

-Cross face him with your right outer forearm

-Immediately, perform a duck-under type step to HIS right side (your left side), so that his right tricep now rests on top of your left shoulder, and you're angled maybe about 45 degrees away from him

-Underhook his right arm deep with your left arm. Ideally, this will throw him a little forward

-While doing this, push on the right side of his head down and away with your right hand, and lock out your elbow.

-Bring your underhooking arm around his shoulder, and figure-4 your grip around your right wrist. Your right elbow should still be locked out, and your left arm has an extremely deep overhook that is closed off by the figure-4 grip on your right wrist.

-You're now free to throw him onto the ground or knee the ever-loving shit out of his head.

 

[Matt Thornton]

I think your problem might be you're not setting up the clinch properly.

How do you usually go for a Thai clinch, and when do you do it? Maybe there are certain body movements you make that are telegraphing your intentions, or maybe you're only going for it when he's really getting the better of you? Chances are, he's reading you, and you're giving it away.

My suggestion would be to ask him how and when he's setting that up in a sparring session.

In fact, not just in stand-up, but in any session, be it wrestling, rolling, or sparring, if someone gets a move on you, and you don't know how they did it, ask for a time out and ask them to show you how they did the move.


Also, I could be totally wrong, but aren't you supposed to try to keep close with the clinch until you're ready to knee, and THEN you move back?

 

[Ian Coe]

Also, I could be totally wrong, but aren't you supposed to try to keep close with the clinch until you're ready to knee, and THEN you move back?

No, thats right. You basically hug and throw round knees until you see the opportunity to throw one straight up the middle, by popping your hips back

Good call on the telegraphing, I forgot about that one

 

[Foolkiller]

Lift one leg, turn it at a 45 degree angle and put your shin across his.

 

[MTnewbie]

-Immediately, perform a duck-under type step to HIS right side (your left side), so that his right tricep now rests on top of your left shoulder, and you're angled maybe about 45 degrees away from him

What if you eat a knee to your chin as you "duck under" his arm?

I believe the mma fighters clinch work is best suited for mma. If you lower you head basically one inch vs a seasoned muaythai fighter you run a huge risk getting knocked out with a knee to your chin.
Vs a mma fighter, as in someone that doesnt live, breath and eat in the stand up thai clinch itll work. OT, the deal about this scenatio is to never get stuck in such a dominating position imho, and if you do, close the distance and pray.

 

[hockeyfacekilla**]

put your right hand on your side of your left elbow and left hand on the side of your right elbow. block them until he's tired. hit ur elbows on his thighs when he strikes. then there is a move where you can wrap your arm around the guys leg and slam him from this position but i don't want to write that much.

 

[Matt Thornton]

What if you eat a knee to your chin as you "duck under" his arm?

You've obviously never done a duckunder.

A duckunder brings you nowhere near a knee. It's a simple dip of the knee, that lowers your level several inches so you slide under his arm. And I said it's LIKE a duckunder; you don't even go as low as a normal duckunder.

If you read my whole post, you'd also see that I learned this from Chute Boxe. Murilo Ninja, Mauricio Shogun, Eduardo Alonso. No offense but I think they know a lot more about MT and MMA than you do, and considering they compete at the highest level of the sport, they wouldn't be using techniques that expose them like that.

 

[Cardio]

I think he's still in America right now, so it's hard to ask him.

Yes, telegraphing is one of the problems, but also getting him off balance is another thing. He's got a really strong/thick core and neck with a good sense of balance, so it's hard to properly off-balance him.

 

[MTnewbie]

I havent done any duckunders, I dont believe in duckunders in MT, I believe in pulling back your head to avoid punch/ high kicks but never ever ever do i duck under anything in anyway. Ever.

As for those guys competing "at the highest level of the sport", they dont. Ive never heard of them competing at Lumpini. Yea they are the best there is when it comes to MMA, but MMA isnt MT with subwrestling. MMA is a whole other ballgame in the standup. The biggest different (except ofcourse for groundwork) is how you clinch.

Do you really think W.Silva would be able to knee a professional MT fighter to the head?

 

[CowboyPete]

A tip to help with the distance closing strategy:

If you put one of your arms over the top of both of their arms and grab onto the one opposite yours. It should be sort of like the crossing line in an "H." If you bring that arm down on the inside of their elbow, it will bring you a bit closer and make it a bit harder for them to control your neck.

 

[Cantorious]

Shogun and Ninja showed us some SICK moves from the Thai clinch.

Okay, I know this is semi-unrelated to your question, but try this defense against a Thai clinch:

-He has both hands on your head in the neck clinch, your hands are on the outside

-Cross face him with your right outer forearm

-Immediately, perform a duck-under type step to HIS right side (your left side), so that his right tricep now rests on top of your left shoulder, and you're angled maybe about 45 degrees away from him

-Underhook his right arm deep with your left arm. Ideally, this will throw him a little forward

-While doing this, push on the right side of his head down and away with your right hand, and lock out your elbow.

-Bring your underhooking arm around his shoulder, and figure-4 your grip around your right wrist. Your right elbow should still be locked out, and your left arm has an extremely deep overhook that is closed off by the figure-4 grip on your right wrist.

-You're now free to throw him onto the ground or knee the ever-loving shit out of his head.

That is a GREAT technique, I saw it on the Ernesto Hoost instructional, good job explaining it and like you said if you do the DU properly you should execute it without much risk of eating a knee.

 

[Matt Thornton]

I havent done any duckunders, I dont believe in duckunders in MT, I believe in pulling back your head to avoid punch/ high kicks but never ever ever do i duck under anything in anyway. Ever.

As for those guys competing "at the highest level of the sport", they dont. Ive never heard of them competing at Lumpini. Yea they are the best there is when it comes to MMA, but MMA isnt MT with subwrestling. MMA is a whole other ballgame in the standup. The biggest different (except ofcourse for groundwork) is how you clinch.

Do you really think W.Silva would be able to knee a professional MT fighter to the head?

The technique was in an Ernesto Hoost instructional. Maybe you should try the technique or at least see it before you continue to bash it.

 

[Zoti]

I assume you take the knee to the solar plexus as you try to reach and clinch. There are a few things you can do in this situation.

You could fake a clinch attempt. As he throws his straight knee you take a step backwards hoping that he will loose balance and that momentum takes him forward. You then immediately grab his neck and clinch.

You can divert the knee. Go for the clinch. Then, as he throws the knee you use your outside palm to parry the knee in the other direction. It also helps if you do a half turn outside while you parry to make sure the knee misses. This will turn him and he will end up with his side to you. To make it clear, if he knees with his left knee you are going to use your right palm to push the side of the knee towards your left so he will end up with his left side in front of you.

You can combine both techniques above. This is good when he throws the straight knee but doesn't fall forward. In this case, after you stepped back and he threw the knee you are going to parry it and step in fro the clinch.

One more thing you can do is jam the body while he is kneeing. As he throws the knee you will use your cross hand to reach the front of his pelvis right above the kneeing leg. You jam your hand (almost lock the elbow straight) with your fingers pointing outside. This works very well is you are the same height or you are taller. Again, to make this clear, if he throws left knee you use you left hand to jam and make sure the fingers point out to your right.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zankou]

Lots of very interesting thoughts in this thread ... I've always wanted a better description of how to get out of the MT clinch.

 

[fightclubny]

If your opponent has their hands wrapped around your head trying to push your down TO THEIR KNEE.
YOU WANT SLIP YOUR HANDS BEHIND THEIR HEAD PUSH DOWN AND STEP BACK AND COME UP WITH THE KNEE. bY DOING THIS YOU WILL BREAK THEIR CLINCH. WHEN YOUSTEP BACK IT WILL GIVE YOU MORE LEVERAGE AND MORE ROOM TO COME UP WITH THE KNEE.

 

[Soulfly]

That's an awesome technique about the duck under.
I'm not skilled enough to do it, but it seems like it could work. Anyone see if it is executed in a pride fight or something?