Technique of the Month: Tai Otoshi

[georgejjr]

One of the hardest forward throws from a technical perspective ... not much point learning it from a basic youtube vid.

Yup, not even from Neil Adams (who incidentally was a world champion and used Tai Otoshi as one of his main throws). Videos are great for backing up good instruction, but not many can usefully learn a throw from them (Jon Jones apparently being an exception, as he says that's how he's learned judo).

Though Kano claimed to have learned kata-guruma (fireman's carry) from a book of western wrestling, so anything is possible.

 

[Darkslide632]

I tried a "technique of the Month" thing years ago on the Judo forum. I even started with tai otoshi. It went to shit pretty quickly.

 

[Thai Otoshi]

I tried a "technique of the Month" thing years ago on the Judo forum. I even started with tai otoshi. It went to shit pretty quickly.

What were their criticisms, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[Darkslide632]

Ultimately it was a "Here's my video. This is how you do it. There's no point watching any other videos now that I've posted mine... now excuse me while I go embezzle money from a high school band booster club" situation that degenerated pretty quickly when I called him out, and suggested that there was plenty that could be learned from other people.

 

[JudokaUK]

The video is poor, but to be fair to the poster he's in with the other 99% of other Tai Otoshi videos that are on YouTube and are all equally poor.

However, it does give an opportunity for a useful learning exercise particualrly because he does say something right, but doesn't do it and it can show how you can avoid risking injury to the knee if you just make some simple corrections.

The blown knee risk is, if you'll excuse the pun, somewhat overblown, while it can happen it's not actually a result of leg placement and heel up versus heel down or doing a flick etc... isn't really what causes the danger. The danger starts much earlier in the use of the hands and thus consequently a lack of kuzushi, which cause a beginner to attempt to force the throw.

Let's get back to basics, the video poster gets this bit right, Tai Otoshi is a te waza or hand technique. So use of the hands is all important.

Unfortunately the poster get's the most important hand in this hand technique wrong.

The problem with the hands for Tai Otoshi usually stem from the fact that people haven't been taught how to do Kuzushi properly or how to position themselves for throws properly. If you're not sure whether you have been taught those things properly, click on the links to find out, they will take you to other Sherdog threads.

So, to the poster's hand error, the mistake he makes is super super common. He doesn't use his lapel hand properly, instead of tucking his forearm into uke's armpit and projecting uke using his arm, by keeping his right hand in front of his own head. He slides his forearm across uke's chest and let's his right hand fall behind his own head.

See how his arm is positioned in front of uke's chest and his wrist is cocked backwards awkwardly

Note how uke's feet are completely flat on the floor, he is in no way off balance.

He should be more like this with his elbow tucked in and his arm projecting uke, with his hand in front of his head

The reason for this is that if you have your arm in front of uke's chest with your wrist behind your head your arm is very weak.

Try it, stand up and put your arm in a position so your bicep is level with your shoulder and your forearm at 90 degress to your bicep, like you're being put in a figure four/ ude garami. Now move your wrist backwards so it's behind your head. You'll immediately realise how structurally weak and bad this position is. Yet this is how so many people try to throw someone with when doing Tai Otoshi!

Not only is this a very structurally weak position for your own arm, meaning you can hurt yourself by doing this it also messes up your entire weight distribution for the throw.

Interestingly the poster actually says the correct thing about weight distribution , he just doesn't actually do it. He doesn't do it because his incorrect lapel hand action makes it impossible for him to do what he says to do.

When you let your arm slide across uke's chest and your hand fall behind your head, you force your body to adapt by leaning your head away from uke, over your left leg if you're a right hander.

The poster says, you should put the majority of your weight on your throwing over leg, in his case his right leg, but look at where his head actually ends up

Note uke's feet, still flat on the floor and still on balance

Where your head goes, so does your weight.

At this point we need to address the 50/50 versus 70/30 weight distributution schools of thought. I call the 50/50 the Adams School and the 70/30 the Japanese school.

In the Adams school you should have the weight even on both feet

In the Japanese School you have 70 on the throwing over leg and 30 on the supporting leg

The important take away is that whatever you do, you need at least 50% of your weight on the throwing over leg.

The poster clearly has the majority of his weight on his supporting leg, because that's where his head is leaning.

A good video by Olympian Nicholas Gill on how bad hand positioning forces your weight distribution out of whack

[YT]Jnnn-dlVH4Y[/YT]

Coming back to the blown knee thing. This combination of poor hand positioning, leading to incorrect head positioning, which throws out your weight distribution is actually what causes knee injuries.

Because tori's hands are behind his head and thus in an awkward poweless position, he's leaning away from uke and thus, as the Gill video shows putting uke back on balance. If Tori tries to complete the throw he has to brute force an on balance uke over his throwing over leg, which because of the shit hand positioning and body posture is jammed up against the leg of an uke who is on balance. Add in a nervous or resisiting uke and you can see how that knee injury can occur.

If anyone is interested in how they can avoid causing this injury to their partners and learn how to do Tai Otoshi I recommend you start here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/kuzushi-how-do-how-drill-1823001/

and here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/positioning-judo-throws-1820475/

Then go here:

http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f12/tai-otoshi-key-points-combinations-1836105/

 

[Darkslide632]

I think one of the reasons that people have such a difficult time with the position of the lapel-side hand is because basically every Judo school I've ever been to teaches it in three or more steps or stages. Kuzushi, step in with your right foot (assuming you're throwing right handed), withdraw your left foot, kake... yet if your right hand is in the correct position, it's almost impossible to get through those steps without them falling. To prevent uke from falling, they end up allowing their elbow and wrist to fall back.

Even in the picture of Paul (who I dislike, but who is also a knowledgeable - if completely inflexible - about Judo) he's allowed his elbow to fall back (though he does manage to keep his wrist in front) while he talks.

I've never actually seen someone's knee hurt by tai otoshi, though I've heard the stories.

 

[SummerStriker]

If the knee pop is so dangerous, why don't wrestlers get their legs hurt more often by it? It is pretty easy to end up in a sloppy Tai Otoshi when struggling with a head and arm throw. If it were that dangerous, wouldn't you hear about it more?

A lot of BJJ guys do O Goshi but not Tai Otoshi. If you do O Goshi, you are going to end up in a cruddy Tai Otoshi from time to time.

 

[Leify]

!

JudokaUK posting again...

 

[Zankou]

Amazing post from judokaUK!!! Tho in fairness I believe the poster was showing the esoteric morote tai Otoshi, hence the elbow across the chest.

 

[Zankou]

If the knee pop is so dangerous, why don't wrestlers get their legs hurt more often by it? It is pretty easy to end up in a sloppy Tai Otoshi when struggling with a head and arm throw. If it were that dangerous, wouldn't you hear about it more?

A lot of BJJ guys do O Goshi but not Tai Otoshi. If you do O Goshi, you are going to end up in a cruddy Tai Otoshi from time to time.

Not gonna be tai Otoshi. Putting your leg across is not what makes the throw tai Otoshi.

 

[SummerStriker]

Not gonna be tai Otoshi. Putting your leg across is not what makes the throw tai Otoshi.

That's why I said cruddy. I've seen they trained pop their knee back and pull the jacket to the angle.

 

[doyourkegles22]

The video is poor, but to be fair to the poster he's in with the other 99% of other Tai Otoshi videos that are on YouTube and are all equally poor.

Can you break mine down so I can further my technique? Your post was right on.


My video is on top of page 2.

 

[QingTian]

Whoa, and they call me the pedantic one!

 

[Kbits]

Ultimately it was a "Here's my video. This is how you do it. There's no point watching any other videos now that I've posted mine... now excuse me while I go embezzle money from a high school band booster club" situation that degenerated pretty quickly when I called him out, and suggested that there was plenty that could be learned from other people.

I remember that. Ptnippon and ck could be the most insufferable pricks at times.

Judoka UK is spot on; another time when you can see this "wrist fucks the throw up" thing is with morote seoinage. People grab too high up on the collar and try to compensate by over rotating their wrist to get into position. More often than not, this is not possible, so they tweak the elbow when throwing/end up standing in the wrong place.

I always tell people "grab at the nipple level or below and then do atomic titty twister". The wrist starts but the elbow and shoulder rotate most, so that you end up in a perfectly natural wrist position at the end; none of this cocked wrist bullshit

 

[QingTian]

Amazing post from judokaUK!!! Tho in fairness I believe the poster was showing the esoteric morote tai Otoshi, hence the elbow across the chest.

Using the elbow across is a valid form for tai otoshi. The difference is that you can attack head on and you do not need to turn uke as much. Elbow in armpit requires more control and unless you are an Adams you will find it very difficult to turn uke fully. That is why most of us are forced to attack to the corner, like the Korean demo.

Here is an elbow across demo.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=871489149535989&pnref=story

I think in general the lighter weights prefer this way, whereas heavy weights can take advantage of their strength better the other way.

The OP's video mixes elements of the two and in general does not show sufficient coordination nor use of 'hara' (i.e. his limbs aren't working with his body).

 

[JudokaUK]

Amazing post from judokaUK!!!

Thanks, although I was really only rehashing stuff I'd covered in my Tai Otoshi thread

Tho in fairness I believe the poster was showing the esoteric morote tai Otoshi, hence the elbow across the chest.

Using the elbow across is a valid form for tai otoshi.

There is a very valid and effective technique where tori's elbow is across uke's chest and they're thrown when tori has an outstretched leg, it isn't however, Tai Otoshi.

The Kodokan are quite clear on this, about 35 seconds in

[YT]56c61iz-ft8[/YT]

It's a Seoi Nage variation and as such has a totally different mechanic.

Can you throw someone over your leg with your elbow slipped across uke's chest in a bastardised Seoi Nage/ Tai Otoshi cross over, yes! Should you teach people that that's how you do Tai Otoshi, especially beginners, no!

I think one of the reasons that people have such a difficult time with the position of the lapel-side hand is because basically every Judo school I've ever been to teaches it in three or more steps or stages. Kuzushi, step in with your right foot (assuming you're throwing right handed), withdraw your left foot, kake... yet if your right hand is in the correct position, it's almost impossible to get through those steps without them falling. To prevent uke from falling, they end up allowing their elbow and wrist to fall back.

This is an excellent point and really gets to the heart of a lot of the problems with how Judo is taught when it comes to kuzushi and forward throws.

One of the ways I've found to prevent this from happening is teaching people proper positioning and tsurikomi, hence why I linked to posts on it.

For everyone other than Darkslide, this is what the issue is.

People start in the standard position and step, hopefully to the peak of the triangle

Where they then go wrong and end up in the situation Darkslide talked about is they take a huge swinging backstep

If you do this it is impossible to retain correct hand positioning and weight distribution. From here on out the whole throw is doomed to failure.

Instead you want to bring your trailing foot to just ahead of your placed foot

When you get more proficient you almost want to replace your planted foot with your trailing foot and then skip out the planted foot across in front of uke, so it becomes the throwing over leg.

Here is a video where first Nicholas Gill illustrates how doing to big a back swing causes hip crash, which will knock your uke back onto balance and throw your hands and weight distribution out of whack.

Followed by an example of how observing the triangle and effectively replacing the planted foot works

[YT]ElWbhT2Xgp4[/YT]

Another key part of this is once you've brought your trailing leg into position, but before/ as you move your planted foot across to become the throwing over leg. You need to project uke with your lapel hand.

I'll repost the Gill video to show the kind of projection I'm talking about

[YT]Jnnn-dlVH4Y&x[/YT]

See how he moves uke with just his lapel hand so that uke is on his toes and already going over.

Can you break mine down so I can further my technique? Your post was right on.


My video is on top of page 2.

This one?

[YT]HpZ-BccXbKA[/YT]

I'm not sure I can comment much, firstly because you're doing an advanced variation that I've never actually pulled off in randori or competition and I generally don't comment on techniques unless I can actually do them for real. Secondly because there's not much to go on with only two throws shown.

Two things I would say may potentially be at issue, but I can't be sure because of the above.

First it looks like you're back swinging quite a lot, I can't be sure because of the shortness of the video etc... etc... but something to be mindful of.

Second, I can't tell if you are doing this or if you're just used to fully commiting and rolling through, but there is a fine line between bending over and losing the necessary posture to throw and fully commiting.

Won Hee Lee sticks out as someone who did that version of two handed sleeve Tai Otoshi, but always kept good upright body posture

[YT]HQMR038gt3I[/YT]

 

[doyourkegles22]

First it looks like you're back swinging quite a lot, I can't be sure because of the shortness of the video etc... etc... but something to be mindful of.

Second, I can't tell if you are doing this or if you're just used to fully commiting and rolling through, but there is a fine line between bending over and losing the necessary posture to throw and fully commiting.

Won Hee Lee sticks out as someone who did that version of two handed sleeve Tai Otoshi, but always kept good upright body posture

[YT]HQMR038gt3I[/YT]

Ooh good point, I'll have to try and keep my body upright a little more next time I get my rounds in. One thing I noticed when I would randori is I am more upright so when the throw doesn't land, I can quickly fire off another tai otoshi.

I appreciate the help!

 

[Darkslide632]

I take a big swinging step back. I think it's a valid way to do the technique. There are some very competent guys like Yoshida and Ray Stevens who take a big back step... but you have to be really strict with your lapel grip, and often uke is falling before your extended leg really plants. In this video you'll notice Yoshida plants his initial foot off center rather than at the "top of the triangle" smaller back step, same ending position.

[YT]watch?v=JISY2MKKsXA[/YT]

Jimmy Pedro teaches it by stepping to the top of the triangle, but with a large backstep. He plants his foot foot almost even with uke's feet. If you compare his position with Yoshida's, you'll see his initial step is much more centered and he uses a larger back-step to get his foot into position.

[YT]watch?v=bPPigY8SxRc[/YT]

Janine Nakao (who admittedly isn't on the same level as some of the people posted in here) takes a HUGE step back, sometimes planting her foot BEHIND her opponent's foot. Her initial step is extremely off center, even more so than either Yoshida or Ishii.

[YT]watch?v=OEFCmuddGoI[/YT]


[YT]watch?v=ibEyuuR4CRo#t=79[/YT]

Satoshi Ishii uses the same kind of entry as Yoshida, where he plants his lead foot off-center, rather than at the top of the triangle, and then takes the same, small cross-step leaving his foot far off to the side and just very slightly forward of uke's feet.

This is Phil Porter demonstrating his tai otoshi. His might be the most extreme of the bunch, even more so than Janine Nakao, but you can see that he maintains the integrity of his right arm throughout the throw. It would be impossible for him to stop at mid-point during this throw to discussion the technique, unless he allowed his elbow to fall behind his shoulder, which is what I was mentioning earlier.

I think having a large backswing is perfectly fine, but if you've only ever done it with a more open stance, you'll find it awkward. if you watch the spacing video above, you'll see the position for THAT style tai otoshi is SIGNIFICANTLY different than the foot position used by the people I posted above. I think they're all valid and effective, just different.

Regardless of ANY of that, the same principles in regards to the lapel-side wrist/elbow/shoulder still apply, and it is still extremely important to always keep the wrist in front of the elbow, and when possible the elbow in front of the shoulder.

As far as whether or not the elbow across variation is valid, the Kodokan talks about it and the differences in how the arm is used in tai otoshi vs seoi nage (type 2). In this instance they are using a cross lapel grip. Regardless of that though, as JudokaUK said, I probably wouldn't teach that to beginners.

http://www.kodokan.org/e_waza/04taiotoshi.html

My elbow hurts just looking at the video QingTian posted though.

 

[QingTian]

It's a Seoi Nage variation and as such has a totally different mechanic.

Can you throw someone over your leg with your elbow slipped across uke's chest in a bastardised Seoi Nage/ Tai Otoshi cross over, yes! Should you teach people that that's how you do Tai Otoshi, especially beginners, no!

What OP did may be so, but look at the video I posted - that is tai otoshi. At no point was there back contact, and the throw direction is different. Uke does not roll off the back.

 

[Darkslide632]

That it, then?