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Tall Kickboxing Stance and Takedown Defense

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by SummerStriker, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. SummerStriker Black Belt

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    I started taking private wrestling / jui-jitsu lessons from a pro fighter who's been coaching wrestling for the last 12 years. He knows his shit. It is really excellent.

    He believes strongly in a lower stance than what I use. I stand very tall with a narrow stance and legs only slightly bent. He has me widen my stance and bend my knees more, which he believes is important for MMA, both for take down defense and performing take downs.

    I do not see myself using take downs. It isn't my personality and my strength is kicking people, which I like to do quickly from either leg. My concern is take down defense. Maybe that will change in the future when I get better at this material. Right now, I enjoy staying on my feet.

    For the purposes of take down defense only, is it ok to stand tall? Do you need a wider stance at all times to effectively defend yourself from higher level grapplers or can it be done from a tall kickboxing stance?

    Anyone have any video examples of kickboxers successfully stopping a take down from their normal stance, either by fighting out of it or managing to sprawl?

    I am open to the idea of changing my stance if I eventually agree that it is necessary, but I am strongly disinclined because I'm old, set in my ways, and like how I do things already. Changing how I stand is a tall order and I can't take it lightly without a long and hard think about it.
     
  2. Grapplingwizard** Banned Banned

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    Your instructor is right. In wrestling, we use a wider stance with knees bent and we are low to the ground. This is the best stance for stopping takedowns. In MMA, you won't be using a wrestling stance, but its obvious that doing the opposite and standing straight up will not be good for stopping TD's. Nick Diaz sometimes keeps his hands low so he can stop TD's.
     
  3. tk99 Blue Belt

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    Your instructor is 100% correct.

    Coming from a muay thai background, one of my biggest difficulties in transitioning to mma was adjusting my standup posture to prevent the takedown. It is a different animal.

    To illustrate the point, watch Faber's stance in the opening minutes of most recent fights. His feet are at least a meter apart.

    The tall stance of a muay thai fighter is very helpful in checking leg kicks, blocking kicks and punches, and throwing teeps. It however makes one very succeptible to the double leg.

    Trust your coach and trust that you will adapt in time and it will become second nature. Good luck.
     
  4. Balto Silver Belt

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    The tall kickboxing stance is absolutely terrible for defending takedowns. It is by far its biggest weakness.

    There was even a Street Fighter cartoon episode on this topic. Ryu and Ken were losing to some of Sagat's Muay Thai fighters. Then they noticed that the Thai fighters had a balance problem from their stance and started sweeping them instead.

    The only thing it is good for is kicks. You'll notice that boxers stand much wider because they don't need to deal with them. You are going to need to stand wider if you want to do MMA.
     
  5. Kozbot Purple Belt

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    boxers however blade their body to their opponent which is even worse for defending takedowns
     
  6. Balto Silver Belt

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    Yes, it is not optimal either. I was just referring to the general width of stance.

    Really none of the individual stances will work without modification (Muay Thai, boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, etc.) Tradeoffs will need to be made regardless to reflect the differing realities of MMA.
     
  7. BigAlfTheCrane White Belt

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    if this really is true then you shouldn't be asking this question
     
  8. HIMBOB Steel Belt

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    While I am not a pro fighter who's been coaching wrestling for the last 12 years I am happy that we share the exact same thoughts on this matter.

    What are you going to do if you face a wrestler? You going to kick him from a high stance? I can see it going well until he catches on kick dumps you on your arse and then...........



    You might be able to get away with a high stance if you are a fair bit shorter but if not no dice.

    TDD is two things in my mind, wide base and having the lower hips, if his base is wider and his hips under yours you are going for a ride.
     
  9. Discipulus Black Belt

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    SS, watch how Tyrone Spong stood in his MMA debut, or how Alistair Overeem stood against Brock Lesnar. You can kick hard out of a lowered stance, and you can stand tall when you're in kicking range. But it's hard to stop a takedown when you're really upright. Plus, you punch harder when you can sit down a little more on your shots.
     
  10. Discipulus Black Belt

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    Think more old school.

    [​IMG]

    You can square your hips and still keep your head off center. In fact, keeping the knees pointed away from one another helps you (as wrestlers obviously know) change elevations more quickly, which is useful for boxing too. Really, the same wrestling principles of getting underneath the opponent apply to boxing. It just takes a little adjusting, as Balto said.
     
  11. tk99 Blue Belt

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    Would love for an mma opponent to use this posture. Single leg, or front round kick KO, or free leg kick, or get rear control then suplex or trip. That's a smorgesboard outside a boxing match.

    KJ Noons used that posture successfully against Nick Diaz in the first fight, but he was begging for that left round kick. To be fair, there is a takedown from there, but you're asking a lot of your timing.
     
  12. Discipulus Black Belt

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    I don't think you understand what you're seeing in that picture. I picked that image to show Joe's hips and legs, the fact that his knees are externally rotated and his hips more forward-facing, rather than a long, bladed stance, which isn't really ideal in boxing either. This, however, is not a picture of his normal stance. He's clearly leaning looking for a left hook or uppercut on his opponent here. Joe normally stood like this:

    [​IMG]

    With his head pulled away from the opponent. He might have carried his hands low, but he's not asking for a high kick any more than Samart did with his lowered hands. A good boxing stance actually allows you to rely less on your timing by giving you more space and time to react, and by preventing your opponent from closing in on you.

    For what it's worth, I use a modified boxing stance in Muay Thai, and it works just fine.
     
  13. Dirty Holt Black Belt Professional Fighter

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    Good news and bad news: Bad news is, the easiest way to stop takedowns is to lower your stance. The good news is that timing and angles are far far better tools to stop takedowns than elevation changes are. Most elite college/Olympic level wrestlers can walk into any highschool in America, stand straight up, and no one will be able to ever take them down. Why? Because when you understand how takedowns work and the timing that makes them successful, they are much easier to stop by simply moving your own body out of the way.
     
  14. loyalyolayal Steel Belt

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    this.


    or TS could train more subs & sweeps off his back & fight like kampmann who fights in a standard upright stance.
     
  15. SummerStriker Black Belt

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    Thanks for the posts gentleman. All stuff to consider.

    I've done a metric ton of MMA sparring and I don't get taken down much, but I didn't really have a "game plan" relating to it, other than what I picked up along the way.

    From kicking range, I guess I have enough time to sprawl if they shoot in. If they get closer than that, I don't usually try to punch, favoring to go immediately to the clinch, and I guess my stance gets wider when I'm closer anyway, to favor it.

    I have to admit, I like the feeling of the stance he gave me. A little wider stance will make throwing power kicks with the rear leg easier and I can feel it in shadow boxing.

    It is a trade.

    I'll play with it and talk to him about it next time. Thanks you
     
  16. Saenchai Purple Belt

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    which movie? i wanna watch!
     

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