Systema Founder passed away

TheMaster

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The leader of the most widely taught Systema school, Mikhail Ryabko, passed away from cancer a few days ago.

No matter your thoughts on the system he was a very highly skilled martial artist and a good person.

Commiserations to his family and those closest to him, and the wider Systema world



 


Wolfman (alas, no more on this forum) taking punches from Ryabko and Kadochnikov student Vladimir Vasiliev


And taking a beatdown from Vasiliev early student George Pogachic


And talking about it
 
Yeah, I saw that. I got to train with Vladimir a few times. My initial MMA instructor was one of his students from the 90s when he still was affiliated with the ROSS guys. My instructor ended up training ROSS first, then to Vladimir and trained Sambo with another local guy who was pretty good. Systema is not a bad system for movement, but I would never recommend it on it's own. I imagine every Russian who has trained in systema had trained something like Sambo, Judo, or wrestling as a base first.
 
Yeah, I saw that. I got to train with Vladimir a few times. My initial MMA instructor was one of his students from the 90s when he still was affiliated with the ROSS guys. My instructor ended up training ROSS first, then to Vladimir and trained Sambo with another local guy who was pretty good. Systema is not a bad system for movement, but I would never recommend it on it's own. I imagine every Russian who has trained in systema had trained something like Sambo, Judo, or wrestling as a base first.
Yes for sure, all of the top guys including Vlad have significant prior martial art experience. It's not a style for noobies though, you need prior martial arts experience as a base.
That said, the training if done properly takes it to another level.

Just using Wolfman as an example, he was training with Dan Severn, Relson and Royce, had done a wide variety of styles to a high level including having a black belt from Gokor and yet he says he was 'toyed with' by Pogachic, a Vasiliev student although also with much prior martial arts experience before this.
This type of an anomaly makes you think.
Their discussion is long but well worth a listen.

Add to that there's lots of healthy calisthenic training and breath work, I can also vouch that some of the top Vlad students hit with some of the hardest strikes you will ever feel...real internal power that goes right through it really has to be felt, and from virtually any position.
 
was this guy for real or just another out of shape , self defense guru who just demonstrates a bunch of fancy techniques on cooperating opponents?
 
So like Aiki-don't?
Yes. I would say the similarities lie in the fact that one needs a willing participant for most of the techniques to work. I do believe that some of the wristlocks, etc., from Aikido can absolutely work in the right circumstances, but most of the vids I have seen are from guys flopping around willingly. Same with Systema, but I have never seen anything useful from Sytema.
Disclaimer: I have no real world experience with this stuff. I just watch a lot of combat sports crap.
 

I honestly don't know why they emphasize this no contact or minimal contact BS because as I understand it, they are showing simply direction of force or breaking balance, not a full technique.

This early Ryabko vid shows the same


However as always with Systema look closer and you can see what is of value. The guy doing the rolling and falling and being slammed is doing it with impact and on a solid wooden floor with no mats like you would find in Judo or BJJ. This is itself impressive and I would ask you to give it a try, even just throwing yourself to the ground and rolling on the bare floor with no mats it takes some skill to do it well at speed and with no injury.

I would also say that if you ever have a chance to visit Vladimir Vasiliev, officially Ryabko's student but more likely a collaborator and primarily a Kadochnokov student and you will see for yourself what is valid and legit and separate from what is training exercises or concepts, it's something that vids will never do justice but has to be experienced.

 
Yes. I would say the similarities lie in the fact that one needs a willing participant for most of the techniques to work. I do believe that some of the wristlocks, etc., from Aikido can absolutely work in the right circumstances, but most of the vids I have seen are from guys flopping around willingly. Same with Systema, but I have never seen anything useful from Sytema.
Disclaimer: I have no real world experience with this stuff. I just watch a lot of combat sports crap.
Having trained in Systema. It does have some good stuff. But as I stated before, it would be terrible on its own or as a base martial art. As I understand, it was trained to Spetnaz bodyguards for basically personal protection of clients. And well, being a Spetnaz, he would have had plenty of combat sambo training first. Second, most of the techniques are more crowd control reliant and not meant for 1 on 1 self defense or fighting. Basically, the idea is a crowd or just a somewhat busy street you are escorting a client, and out of that a crazy decides to try to knife your client. Or even you first to get to your client. That’s kinda what much of it was developed for.

It actually kinda makes more sense if you have done much of the training and scenarios. Most of the videos people see or show are demonstrations showing techniques with overly dramatic and compliant partners. Most of the techniques do actually have good principles, it just doesn’t work at all in real life like they tend practice. Basically, some pretty good techniques, bad way of practicing it for live applications.
 
So like Aiki-don't?
Yes. I would say the similarities lie in the fact that one needs a willing participant for most of the techniques to work. I do believe that some of the wristlocks, etc., from Aikido can absolutely work in the right circumstances, but most of the vids I have seen are from guys flopping around willingly. Same with Systema, but I have never seen anything useful from Sytema.
Disclaimer: I have no real world experience with this stuff. I just watch a lot of combat sports crap.

I don't have a dog in the Systema fight, but on the subject of aikido and the "willing participants" you see "flopping around," that is a misleading aspect of aikido, but it also is straightforward and practical: To facilitate drilling, they teach you how to fall and roll in such a way that you're going with the technique. It's like pro wrestling bumps, a specific way to fall and get back up to keep the momentum going and to keep you safe so you can keep training.

The problem is that it's hard for noobs to separate fact and fiction. For example, in a real fight, nobody who gets their wrist bent is going to do a 360 flip in the air.

stevenseagal-abovethelaw.gif


That's not what that technique would actually look like if applied to an actual attacker. They would just slowly crumble to the ground or they would roll out of it the way that you roll with heel hooks and toe holds. I experienced this as a kid when I was training in aikido and then would fight with my friends. I was friends with wrestlers and generally athletic kids, and when I'd do aikido techniques, they'd intuitively go with the wrist locks, and so I had to get good at going from one technique to another just like going from a heel hook to a kneebar. I also got better with my leverage to where I could bring them to the ground before they could spin out of a given wrist lock. Sadly, that sort of "real-world" experience wasn't something that I ever experienced in my aikido classes. But acknowledging the fact that the falling and rolling in aikido is intended for drilling purposes isn't to deny the effectiveness of a lot of the techniques.

For a cool - and the most "real" and least Bullshido-ish - look at aikido training, I've always loved this Seagal documentary. Hagiography aside, it's cool to see what his dojos were actually like, how he'd have them do the randori and let them just fuck each other up in as raw a fashion as you'll ever see in any TMA gym.



The most interesting parts are 13:42-16:20, 25:33-27:48, and 43:01-48:00, with Seagal teaching classes. The best part about aikido is the randori, but the worst part is that the randori is often so sanitized and reduced from a chaotic battle to something closer to dancing or synchronized swimming. I quit aikido as a kid because we did a randori exercise with some black belt who our sensei made a big deal was from Japan, and during the exercise, I shot a double leg and took her down and my sensei stopped things and told me that I wasn't allowed to do that. I knew enough even then to know that the whole point of the randori is that there's nothing you can't do, and I also knew that if a black belt couldn't stop a double leg from a 12 year old then the black belt was meaningless. That was it for me with aikido. But if I trained at a place that taught realistic aikido, not the cooperative BS that has sadly so polluted the art that that's what it's known as, I probably would've kept at it for a long time.
 
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