International Syria Conflict: Bombs away boys. (Israel openly admits to bombing Iranian bases in Syria)

[Prex32]

There is no proof that gas was even involved at this stage. Reading Fisks report by interviewing actors actually involved in the event it could've been asphyxiation from dust spread by high explosives. What has been proven though is rebels tampering with the scene to create emotional stories that get sanctimonious westerners involved.

 

[Fronk]

The focus should not be on Assad and his close circle trying to sign away their own demise at every opportunity. Because that doesn't make any sense. Instead, as being brought up in this thread before, the focus should be on the obvious lack of control that the goverment has over its own militias. If anything, it wouldn't be an impossibility that some local commander, without actual authorization, carried out this attack. It was probably what happened in Ghouta 2013 and now later in Khan Sheikhoun. Many parts of goverment controlled Syria is basically being run by local militas that operate like nothing more than criminal gangs. It even having evolved into gunfights between federal police and these local NDF in some places. Areas like north Hama province and the highway between Homs and Aleppo is notorious for this type of gang control. Corrupt checkpoints, kidnappings etc. are rampant.

Maybe it's not that overt in the big cities like Damascus, but how do people think Ghouta survived for so many years being completely surrounded? The answer is rampant corruption at all levels of the Syrian military. Well it's actually more like "military", because outside of a few special forces battalions, there is nothing that actually resembles a functional army left. It's at the point where many of these groups are not even funded by the goverment itself but local businessmen.

 

[Madmick]

Not confused at all. You didn’t address anything I said so you’re clearly disinterested in fair discussion. You like preaching. I suspect you’re an academic. Nevertheless.... on a separate note, what’s with the redundant shit in your comments like “incomprehensibly confused”. Who writes like that.

Okay, I'll speak plainly, since you appear to require it.

You clearly did not understand my comments on game theory. How do I know that? Because I made no use of Game Theory. I mocked it. Furthermore, the entire point of me mocking it was to argue the opposite of what you inferred I argued about casualties.

"Incomprehensibly confused" means that I can tell you are confused, but the way in which you are confused is incomprehensible to me, because I'm not sure how you misread the argument I was rebutting as my own, and yet still find a way to disagree with me.

Your reading comprehension is failing on a basic level. It's rendering communication with you impossible. Is that plain enough for you?

 

[Madmick]

*Sigh* Here we go again.

Every video or photograph of prominence like this that was scrutinized following the Ghouta/Sheikhoun attacks when they flooded the internet was proven to be Russian propaganda, and itself the "staged" evidence. Thankfully, Snopes and Bellingcat are already on this familiar and nefarious Russian counterintelligence technique targeting civilians (I recommend following the links because the articles' embedded media don't always show up perfectly):
https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/12/disinformation-conspiracy-trolling-syrian-chemical-attack/

Disinformation and Conspiracy Trolling in the Wake of the Syrian Chemical Attack
Kremlin propaganda led to questions and charges that an attack in the city of Douma that killed scores of civilians was a hoax.

By
Bethania Palma
12 April 2018

On 7 April 2018, reports began emerging from the opposition-held city of Douma east of the Syrian capital of Damascus that scores of civilians had been killed and hundreds injured in a chemical attack. In response to mounting global criticism, the Russian government, which has allied with the regime of Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, ramped up its military-grade propaganda machine in an ongoing to attempt to obfuscate facts.

Although no blame has yet been officially ascribed, this latest deadly attack in the now 7-year Syrian civil war is not unique in that the Assad regime has for years been condemned for using chemical weapons against civilians. In 2013 the regime was accused of using sarin, a nerve agent, in an attack that killed more than 1,400 people in Ghouta.

Reports from the ground in Douma indicate there were at least two strikes, one at 4 P.M. and another at 7:30 P.M. local time. Canisters found at the scene along with symptoms exhibited by victims appear to implicate chlorine gas and “organic phosphorus compounds in the sarin gas category.”

U.S. President Donald Trump has openly blamed the Syrian regime and threatened a missile strike. After the Russians voted down a U.S.-authored United Nations Security Council resolution to investigate the attack, U.N. ambassador Nikki Haley accused the Kremlin of “protecting a monster.”

The disinformation machines have cranked up their propaganda offensive in response to criticism. Russia’s state-funded networks like TASS and RT began churning out stories reflecting the government’s talking points. Both outlets reported on 8 April 2018 that despite witness reports and graphic camera footage from Douma, Syrian government aid workers found “no evidence” of a chemical attack — a conclusion that to no one’s surprise, the Russian government corroborated:

The Russian defense ministry also refuted reports that the Syrian forces had used chemical weapons in Douma in Eastern Ghouta. According to Head of the Russian Center for Reconciliation of the Warring Sides in Syria Major General Yuri Yevtushenko, the allegations that a chlorine barrel bomb had been dropped in Douma by the Syrian armed forces came from the so-called independent non-governmental organizations, including the White Helmets, which is widely known for its fake news.

The Russian embassy Twitter accounts have also revved up the obfuscation efforts:

View image on Twitter


Russian Embassy, UK
✔@RussianEmbassy

.@MoD_Russia: a fake “chemical weapons massacre” was a last attempt to stage a provocation for the benefit of extremists and their foreign backers.
5:36 AM - Apr 12, 2018

Scott Lucas, a journalist and professor of political science and international studies at the University of Birmingham, told us although Moscow became militarily involved in the Syrian conflict in 2015, they had a propaganda office at the presidential palace in Damascus since the beginning. “From the very start you could see how they were putting out muddled story lines just to make you uncertain about what’s happening,” he told us.

The White Helmets, also known by their official title Syria Civil Defense, are a non-governmental organization made up of volunteers who carry out rescue efforts in rebel-held territory while wearing small cameras. Aside from saving lives, they have been credited with documenting war crimes. Thus, they are targets of frequent (but unproven and unfounded) smears that they are terrorists who are staging “false flag” attacks.

Lucas told us attacking medical facilities and first responders then accusing them of terrorism is a Russian tactic, because first responders in Syria — where it’s extremely difficult and dangerous for foreign journalists to enter — are often key reporters of atrocities:

The Russians would go after hospitals and first responders and the propaganda would come out that you shouldn’t trust information from White Helmets or doctors because they’re aligned with the terrorists. They were deliberately bombing the area but saying you can’t trust anyone who is reporting it.

Official Russian government channels are not the only sources of misleading information. Lucas pointed to a coterie of Western social media personalities and bloggers who have concentrated their efforts on running interference for the Assad regime.

Although their motivations are not entirely clear, they generally fall under three categories — people who cling to what they consider anti-imperialist views and fear potential Western-led regime change in Syria, people who equate current events in Syria with the lead-up to the 2003 Iraq war, and another group of activists who, without explanation, have migrated their activism from support for Palestinians in Gaza to support for the Assad regime.

These bloggers have actively participated in campaigns to denigrate the White Helmets, even opining the rescuers are legitimate military targets.

Pat Hilsman, a freelance journalist who covered the Syrian war from the ground from 2012 to 2015 for publications including the Christian Science Monitor, Vice, Middle East Eye and the Daily Beast told us although some of these bloggers may give an air to less media literate audiences of legitimacy because they have traveled to Syria to “report” there, they have in reality been escorted about by minders from a regime with which they are too friendly.

Hilsman pointed out that real foreign journalists only cover the war at great personal risk, citing the case of Marie Colvin, a storied Sunday Times reporter who, according to recent court filings, was targeted and killed by the regime in 2012:

With [the bloggers Vanessa] Beeley and [Eva] Bartlett] it’s clear they’ve been given five-star treatment by the Syrian government and have embraced their propaganda fully without questioning it.

The other important thing about Beeley and Bartlett is their entire existence is based on this false notion that no other journalist has reported from the ground. Their target is a low-information audience.

Lucas noted that there has been an overlap between pro-Assad trolling, disinformation, and propaganda and support for the regime from the American alt-right and far right. As a case in point, notorious conspiracy trolls like Alex Jones and far-right figures like white supremacist Richard Spencer were promoting claims that the Douma attack was a “false flag,” a common conspiracy trope positing that mass casualty incidents are engineered internally to provide pretext for either government repression or military action:


Richard Spencer@RichardBSpencer

Is it a coincidence that #StormyGate, #MichaelCohenRaid, #MuellerWitchHunt are all heating up at the same time as the supposed chemical attack in #Syria and the world's rush to war?



✔@RealAlexJones

False Flag Chemical Attack In Syria Could Start Larger War! https://www.pscp.tv/w/bZpRYjExOTI5NjgyfDF5b0tNa0JQclFkSlEKh-8z3Vs9-e5WxOGCIoo_CqVBqKIafMIv7r3vlsTG8A== …

11:07 AM - Apr 8, 2018
Alex Jones @RealAlexJones
False Flag Chemical Attack In Syria Could Start Larger War!

Agree or disagree but would it surprise ANYONE if our own govt (deep state) was behind these chemical attacks just to bait Trump in war w Russia?

— MFLYNNJR (@mflynnJR) April 11, 2018


Hilsman pointed out that many of the same characters who regularly claim that American victims of mass shootings are nothing more than actors playing a role in a “staged” tragedy (as with mass shootings) repeat the same claims in response to Syrian war victims:

The aftermath of the Parkland shooting is a clear example of the propaganda techniques that have been deployed against Syrian children, being deployed against American children. Perhaps the most revealing aspects of this story is the similarity of the smear campaign against Syrian civilians and the survivors of school shootings, as well as the fact that they often originate from the same sources and are spread via similar methods. In one particularly revealing example a twitter account called WhiteHelmetsExposed(@whitehelmetsEXP) which traffics in propaganda against the Syrian rescue group, has been tweeting memes claiming the Parkland Survivors are actors.

We reached out to Beeley and Bartlett for comment and got no response from Beeley. Bartlett, instead of responding, posted our query to her Twitter page and accused us of “whitewashing al-Qaeda’s rescuers.”

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/13/doumafakenews/

The Douma Chemical Attack – Fake News about Fake News on Russia’s Fake News
April 13, 2018

By Eliot Higgins
Translations: Русский


With any war crime in Syria receiving significant media coverage, there has been a concerted effort by pro-Kremlin and pro-Assad individuals and media outlets to spread claims attacking the Syrian Civil Defense (White Helmets), a major source of information and footage on war crimes in the conflict. These attacks generally fall into two categories: claiming that the White Helmets are Al-Qaeda or ISIS (or even sometimes both), and claiming that the White Helmets fake images of war crimes for gullible Western audiences and media outlets.

The aftermath of the April 7, 2018 Douma chemical attack is no different, with many well-established anti-White Helmets allegations being rehashed by those trying to undermine reporting around the chemical attack. The Russian government has now claimed the White Helmets were ordered by the British government to fake a chemical attack, demonstrating once again that attempts to demonise the White Helmets come not just from fringe actors, but even the Russian government itself. One of the newer allegations was recently covered by the Vesti program on Russian state television channel Russia-1, claiming to show photographs of a White Helmets film set in East Ghouta:


The segment shows a number of images “acquired” by Russia-1’s Vesti news programme supposedly from a White Helmets film set, with Vesti highlighting alleged signs of White Helmet involvement in fakery:


Actually, these images are taken from the Facebook page of the film Revolution Man, with the following synopsis published in Syrian state media:

“The film revolves around a journalist who enters Syria illegally in order to take pictures and videos of the war in Syria in search of fame and international prizes, and after failing to reach his goal, he resorts to helping the terrorists to fabricate an incident using chemical materials, with the aim of turning his photos into a global event.”

In promotional material for a recent screening, the creative director, Najdat Anzour, talks about the film:

“The timing of the screening was important as it coincides with the great preparations made by the West in order to put pressure on Syria after the terrorist groups had collapsed by the Syrian Arab Army. The film also deals with the facts on the ground that we tried to collect from many documents to be presented through an influential feature film in English.”

Images from the Facebook page clearly match those presented by Vesti:

The descriptions for the images on the Facebook page are somewhat confusing, and at first reading seem to indicate that the photographs are from an actual White Helmets dressing room:

“The audience of the film Revolution Man will be surprised in the similarity between the media propaganda implemented by the White Helmets in this movie and the fake media that has been leaked 2 days ago from the make up room of the White Helmets for what’s claiming to be the victims of the shelling in Ghouta to use photos for the media that is partner in killing Syrian blood. These leaks of the White Helmets exposed them but the Revolution Man film was earlier to expose them, and these are the documents that proof this.”

However, the woman holding the clapperboard, with the name of the Revolution Man’s creative director, Najdat Anzour, written on it, is tagged as Farah Arabi Kattbi. She lists her job as assistant director, and her profile includes photographs of her at screenings of Revolution Man:


This clearly indicates that the photographs are from the set of Revolution Man; however, the coverage from Russian state media’s Vesti does not present the facts as such. The Vesti report claims that the images are not from an actual film set, but instead a fake photograph created by the White Helmets to mimic a Syrian government film set. Vesti points to a missing date and film name from the clapperboard being evidence of this claim. This fake movie set was (according to the report) apparently in an attempt cover up the fact the White Helmets are creating fakes with dressing rooms and feature film production values. As evidence, they compare the clapperboard in the photograph to one from the production of a film:


If you are confused by the point of this Vesti segment, you are not alone, as it does not follow any consistent line of logic, as pointed out by the Russian publication The Insider.

The report does not note that one of the production team for Revolution Manis holding the clapperboard, even though it would be easily discoverable by anyone looking at the original images, suggesting either extreme incompetence by the Vesti production team, or a purposeful attempt to deceive the audience.

This report is yet another obvious example of images being misrepresented to attack the White Helmets by the Russian media and the supporters of the Syrian and Russian governments, and one that can be easily debunked with even rudimentary research. Despite the ease of debunking this claim, it is almost certain that these images will continue to be used by those who wish to attack the White Helmets for months, if not years, to come.

 

[mcveteran81]

Lol snopes is on the case.

 

[VivaRevolution]

*Sigh* Here we go again.

Every video or photograph of prominence like this that was scrutinized following the Ghouta/Sheikhoun attacks when they flooded the internet was proven to be Russian propaganda, and itself the "staged" evidence. Thankfully, Snopes and Bellingcat are already on this familiar and nefarious Russian counterintelligence technique targeting civilians (I recommend following the links because the articles' embedded media don't always show up perfectly):
https://www.snopes.com/news/2018/04/12/disinformation-conspiracy-trolling-syrian-chemical-attack/


https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/13/doumafakenews/

Like usual, you take one example, and use it to debunk everything you disagree with.

Is that the only evidence you have ever seen that the white hats aren't what they appear to be?

 

[Fawlty]

We are already at war in Syria.

White House acknowledges the U.S. is at war in seven countries

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article...nowledges-the-us-is-at-war-in-seven-countries

I wonder if the strikes in Syria were supported by 90% of the public like iraq, if we wouldn't have already seen full scale invasion.

Stop trying to play word games with me. You thought this was a pretext, as you say right there in your post. That is my point. It isn't happening. You're wrong.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Stop trying to play word games with me. You thought this was a pretext, as you say right there in your post. That is my point. It isn't happening. You're wrong.

It was an escalation of an already existing war.

Yes, it hasn't turned into full scale conflict........yet.

This isn't over. Israel, iran, the gulf arabs, turkey, they aren't done yet. We will have plenty more excuses to be dragged into Syria even further, before it is over.

 

[mcveteran81]

 

[mcveteran81]

 

[mcveteran81]

 

[Fawlty]

It was an escalation of an already existing war.

Yes, it hasn't turned into full scale conflict........yet.

This isn't over. Israel, iran, the gulf arabs, turkey, they aren't done yet. We will have plenty more excuses to be dragged into Syria even further, before it is over.

Then it isn't a pretext...

 

[mcveteran81]

 

[mcveteran81]

 

[Fronk]

Lol snopes is on the case.

Snopes and Elliot Higgins, the lingerie salesman, trying to drown dissenting voices by discrediting them by association with random twitter trolls. Funny that everything is now boiled down to "nefarious russian disinfo"; seems to be the latest fad to use when you are trying to wrest back control over the narrative. You can never try to have an honest discussion about the facts at hand.

 

[VivaRevolution]

Then it isn't a pretext...

If you want me to admit that I had said it was possible that things could have escalated far further, and that ended up being wrong, that's fine, I do so. I never stated that with any certainty or time frame though, just a possibility, and it still is.

 

[Fawlty]

If you want me to admit that I had said it was possible that things could have escalated far further, and that ended up being wrong, that's fine, I do so. I never stated that with any certainty or time frame though, just a possibility, and it still is.

You get my point about how people who were sure this was a pretext for a war (however we're going to say it, the difference between this state of affairs and a "real" war), right? Even if we take action against chemical weapons attacks in the future, that still doesn't make this strike a pretext for anything. It stands for what it is. We didn't use it as a pretext to invade, or anything. Even if you believe Assad didn't gas his people (which is not a position that is looking to be founded on an ounce of reality), we believe he did and we acted accordingly. That's without giving my opinion on whether we should have done it or not. I don't think that's any sort of easy, obvious decision to make. But it's also not a nefarious pretext.

 

[VivaRevolution]

You get my point about how people who were sure this was a pretext for a war (however we're going to say it, the difference between this state of affairs and a "real" war), right? Even if we take action against chemical weapons attacks in the future, that still doesn't make this strike a pretext for anything. It stands for what it is. We didn't use it as a pretext to invade, or anything. Even if you believe Assad didn't gas his people (which is not a position that is looking to be founded on an ounce of reality), we believe he did and we acted accordingly. That's without giving my opinion on whether we should have done it or not. I don't think that's any sort of easy, obvious decision to make. But it's also not a nefarious pretext.

First, I don't have to prove that Assad wasn't responsible.

Someone needs to provide evidence that he was to justify those air strikes. If that evidence is never supplied, don't be surprised when I am even more skeptical next time.

f

 

[Squall Leonhart]

Why do we keep prodding in the Syrian war if we know the only way to topple Assad would be a direct clash with Russia? Why would we keep looking for excuses to get involved if our main goal was to get rid of Assad, when we know it is impossible?

We just want to muck up the situation for the Russians.

 

[whougonnacall]

Well since what the characterisation behind the goverment carrying out the attack entails is Assad basically being a comically evil bond villian, then a cat stroking picture wouldn't be too farfetched.

It's obvious there is a picture being painted here of Assad just bombing civilians for the sake of bombing civilians, i.e. not a "rational actor", instead of these bombings having an actual purpose. The goverment just spends time, money and political capital on being comically evil.
The motivation of the goverment couldn't obviously be keeping control of Syria and making rationalisations out of that goal; then the chemical attack would make no sense. There is no such thing as not allowing fundamentalist separatists entrench themselves in the suburbs of the capital. Assad just spends his time barrel bombing civilians while stroking a cat.

Lol yeah hes also got ' no reason ' to barrel bomb civilians ,snipe em, starve em ,tortue them en masse etc etc
theres ' no reason' hospitals , food markets and schools are priority targets for the regime
Hes got no reason bar the obvious one ... to break the populace and make the local rebels surrender to end their suffering!
To ensure no alternative local goverment structure can exist ....you can have freedom or freedom from hunger/barrel bombs etc but you cannot have both!

Fronk you arent retarded we both know thats the strategy and its been sucessful "assad or we burn the country!"

A rational actor weighs potential consequences vs gains.....his gamble has paid off hugely as previous actions and the current politcal landscape strongly hinted it would.