Swedes - The end is nigh

[snakedafunky]

The primary purpose of the justice system should aways be justice for the victims.

We could do better in rehabilitation for those that can be.

However that doesn't mean we should shorten the time for crimes.

In fact we should increase the time for some crimes and that would actually cut crime.

But that causes more victims. How do you justify doing something you know will cause more victims?
What good does it do if you lock up a guy for 10 years because he robbed a store. For him to come out again after 10 years no job or no future robbing 3 more stored and shooting someone is the process. Compared to Sweden not giving the guy any time but making sure he gets drug treatment goes back to school or learns a job. The state sets him up with an apartment and he doesn't commit more crimes.
How could that be just? Is the first victim more important compared to the later ones?

Edit: that is an interesting topic bu I am off to watch the fights now

 

[oldshadow]

But that causes more victims. How do you justify doing something you know will cause more victims?
What good does it do if you lock up a guy for 10 years because he robbed a store. For him to come out again after 10 years no job or no future robbing 3 more stored and shooting someone is the process. Compared to Sweden not giving the guy any time but making sure he gets drug treatment goes back to school or learns a job. The state sets him up with an apartment and he doesn't commit more crimes.
How could that be just? Is the first victim more important compared to the later ones?

Edit: that is an interesting topic bu I am off to watch the fights now

I don't belive in blackmail, pay me or I'll commit more crime.

But like I said we could use some changes in the rehabilitation thing for some.

What Fights? Pay for view or free?

 

[SomebodyElse]

a lot of african nations (mainly muslim ones) have lower murder rates than usa, so no.

"Data quality issues Two key elements of data quality are important from a statistical perspective: a) the accuracy of the data (i.e. how closely data represent the reality of the situation); and b) the international comparability of the data. “Accuracy” relates to how close the homicide count is to the standard definition of intentional homicide. Discrepancies with the “true value” can be due to weaknesses in data collection systems, such as incomplete coverage of the events and/or misrepresentation of the data. Assessing data accuracy is challenging in any statistical field, since the “true” value typically remains unknown but, as intentional homicide is often recorded by both criminal justice and public health sources, this independent registration of (largely) the same phenomenon can provide an indirect evaluation of the accuracy of the data by way of comparing these sources.5 In the Americas, Europe and Oceania, the two sources usually match when they are both available, suggesting a high degree of accuracy of homicide data in those regions (see figure 6.5). The situation is different in Africa, however, where large discrepancies between the two sources (in the three countries where data from both sources are available) point to doubtful data quality. These discrepancies are probably due to differences in recording practices or different coverage of the two systems."

4 The reduced availability of data on killing mechanisms is largely due to the more stringent criteria used in the selection process for data included in the UNODC Homicide Statistics (2013) dataset, particularly in relation to the timeliness of data. For more information, see Methodological annex.


If you've got data outside UNODC, by all means, share it! Otherwise, your claim is not really supportable.

P.S. That quote is FROM the UN. See the attached PDF for context.
https://www.unodc.org/documents/gsh/pdfs/Chapter_6.pdf

 

[Hankooks]

I never thought too highly of you @Fawlty but I'd have never guessed you'd defend allowing a 12 year to be married off to her cousin.

You've come a long way.

 

[Lanx]

is normal???

 

[Luger]

I was recently in Stocholm and there was nothing going on.
Kind of like when people were freaking out about Paris having "no go zones" as I was there and there was nothing going on

 

[San Toki]

I was recently in Stocholm and there was nothing going on.
Kind of like when people were freaking out about Paris having "no go zones" as I was there and there was nothing going on

Did you visit any no go zones?

 

[Luger]

Did you visit any no go zones?

There were no - no go zones.
I walked all over the city and never did I notice anything to freak out about

 

[San Toki]

There were no - no go zones.
I walked all over the city and never did I notice anything to freak out about

Google - stockholm no go zones. Or maybe you had a lucky day, who knows

 

[Fawlty]

I never thought too highly of you @Fawlty but I'd have never guessed you'd defend allowing a 12 year to be married off to her cousin.

You've come a long way.

I didn't defend allowing a 12 year old to be married off to her cousin. Go tell a lie about somebody else.

 

[spin]

i looked up several links and they all sourced back to the same website, with no names, even of the judge, no sources, nothing what so ever to verify anything about this story.



so for now, this, is actual fake news.

 

[Luger]

Google - stockholm no go zones. Or maybe you had a lucky day, who knows

Maybe not fearing a whole lot makes life easier

 

[Hankooks]

I didn't defend allowing a 12 year old to be married off to her cousin. Go tell a lie about somebody else.

Whatever you say Jared.

 

[Fawlty]

No offense but I don't see why you'd think that. Many abusive relationships last longer than you'd expect and in this case we're talking about a child within an honor culture, not exactly easy for her to escape if she did want to.

That's what makes it a really hard question, and why I understand the reactions to it. I can't say that people are wrong if they choose to just enforce the law, even taking the circumstances into account. But it's also not an emergency, but something that has been in place for a couple of years, and now there's a pregnancy. The situation can be observed, support and counseling given as a condition of withholding prosecution or other intervention.

Anyway, you might be exaggerating the cultural difference. Child marriage wasn't that common in Syria before the war but became far more common afterwards. Why? Because poor people marry their children off for economic gain. In this case the story says that the older cousin she was married off to financed the trip. Its possible her immediate family lost a lot more than her cousin's family and he decided to pay for their trip in exchange for marriage or something along those lines. The mother would agree because marrying off one kid to get the whole family to Sweden is worth it to her but think about what that means; it would mean this little girl was exploited for monetary gain. Maybe not the best environment for her now that she's in Sweden.

On a side note imagine how weird it would be to have your mom be only 14 years older than you? You'd start high school and she wouldn't even be 30, that's fucking nuts.

I hedged a little on the cultural difference. I understand that Syria has had some more secular aspects to it and that it has been thrown into turmoil. That's why I framed the marriage as something not entirely foreign to the culture, and yes I get that it also wasn't totally normal. In any case, everything changed there and people did desperate things. Unless I have been a victim of a civil war, starvation, thirst, death all around me, then I'm not in much of a position to judge the people in that environment. We are however in a position here, where there isn't a civil war, and where there are healthy norms. And we're importing desperate people. So where does the shit meet the fan on this one? Like I said if there's no pregnancy, then it's much easier to resolve. You split them apart until the age your society allows.

 

[KONE]

Maybe not fearing a whole lot makes life easier

Or maybe your own personal experience isn't indicative of anything. There are people in Somalia that haven't been assaulted before, that doesn't make Somalia a nice place. Can't believe this even has to be said.

 

[Luger]

Or maybe your own personal experience isn't indicative of anything. There are people in Somalia that haven't been assaulted before, that doesn't make Somalia a nice place. Can't believe this even has to be said.

Ugh just going with the extreme.

 

[San Toki]

Maybe not fearing a whole lot makes life easier

Thats what you have been wanting to say the whole time. Why didn't you come out and say that in the first post and not waste our time?

 

[Luger]

Thats what you have been wanting to say the whole time. Why didn't you come out and say that in the first post and not waste our time?

Not at all.
Just responding to a statement

 

[Islam Imamate]

That's what makes it a really hard question, and why I understand the reactions to it. I can't say that people are wrong if they choose to just enforce the law, even taking the circumstances into account. But it's also not an emergency, but something that has been in place for a couple of years, and now there's a pregnancy. The situation can be observed, support and counseling given as a condition of withholding prosecution or other intervention.

That there's a pregnancy might make drastic action more necessary, not less. What if this is a case of exploitation? Just leave the 14 year old mother in that situation?

I hedged a little on the cultural difference. I understand that Syria has had some more secular aspects to it and that it has been thrown into turmoil. That's why I framed the marriage as something not entirely foreign to the culture, and yes I get that it also wasn't totally normal. In any case, everything changed there and people did desperate things. Unless I have been a victim of a civil war, starvation, thirst, death all around me, then I'm not in much of a position to judge the people in that environment. We are however in a position here, where there isn't a civil war, and where there are healthy norms. And we're importing desperate people. So where does the shit meet the fan on this one? Like I said if there's no pregnancy, then it's much easier to resolve. You split them apart until the age your society allows.

Personally I think at this point these countries taking in refugees need to put their foot down. If you're going to come here, you have to abide by the laws. No ifs, ands, or buts. This kind of special treatment, on an individual basis, seems reasonable. But on the macro level what you have is one set of laws for one group and another for the new refugees. That only serves to alienate them from the general population. I know this is just one case but to me its an example, on a small scale, of the sorts of policies that make integration harder.

 

[Fawlty]

That there's a pregnancy might make drastic action more necessary, not less. What if this is a case of exploitation? Just leave the 14 year old mother in that situation?

Personally I think at this point these countries taking in refugees need to put their foot down. If you're going to come here, you have to abide by the laws. No ifs, ands, or buts. This kind of special treatment, on an individual basis, seems reasonable. But on the macro level what you have is one set of laws for one group and another for the new refugees. That only serves to alienate them from the general population. I know this is just one case but to me its an example, on a small scale, of the sorts of policies that make integration harder.

So to you, the pregnancy actually constitutes a sort of emergency (presumably it's raising the stakes of the situation), rather than a reason to back off a little and see if motherhood takes its course. I think that might be an important difference in how we see this. When it comes to asylum I'm definitely more of a moral relativist, the reason being the spirit of asylum itself.