Striking Defense: Stance and Guard

[Discipulus]

This topic has been flirted with in a few of the other threads here, and it's something I've become very interested in recently. After one of my first times sparring an avid body-puncher, I quickly realized that my stance just wasn't cutting it. I was getting nailed in the head (and of course, being even more of a newbie than I am now, I instinctively turned my face away to eat more punches). The only advice the coach had to offer me was "keep your hands up." So when I made my guard nice and high and tight, I was smashed right in the solar plexus with a bunch of straight right hands.

I was pretty bummed out by the experience. I felt like I couldn't do anything offensively, because my defense just wasn't there. Recently, though, I've been experimenting with fighting out of more of a classic boxing crouch. Head off-center, body turned, right hand high to pick off jabs, left hand varying between high or low to either shoot out stiff jabs or sneak the left hand up from underneath. Not only is the experimentation fun, but it's worked for me. In boxing sparring, I'm a lot harder to hit, and I can at least connect with my jab on a very consistent basis.

I don't have very quick reactions, but the stance has made the whole thing easier. I have yet to try a modified version of this for Muay Thai.

So what do you guys think? Is defense inherent to stance? Why is so much value placed on "keeping your hands up," and do you think this is sound advice all on its own? And how does stance affect your defense for styles other than boxing, in which kicks, clinching, and knees are part of the equation?

Edit: This is what I mean by the stance I described by the way:

 

[Sinister]

Made by my partner Dadi:



And yes, defense is relative to stance (as opposed to hand positioning):

 

[td82394]

That's actually really interesting. I don't really have any advice, though, being quite awful myself, so I'll leave this for the guys that know.

EDIT:

I did recall something though from the Rashad-Tito Countdown episode where Tito talked about how Ryan Bader left his center line open and that's how he caught him.

EDIT #2:

Damn, Sinister posted. This thread is over.

 

[Discipulus]

Man, that's a great video, Sinister.

The Tito-Bader fight is actually a great example of what I mean. Bader's stance completely failed him. He kept his head on the center line all the time. Tito came rushing in and clocked him with short right hand. Because Bader's stance forces him to defend with quick reactions, and Tito's attack made him drop his hands, he's left with nothing, and he goes down. If he had had a more elusive stance then he'd be better off.

Sinister, I really appreciate the one point made in that video. The stance is not only harder to connect on, but actually creates even more distance between the opponent weapons and his choice targets--namely, your head, your solar plexus, and your liver. By creating the distance, it makes it much easier for you to react in time. And since the stance is defensively oriented already, your reactions needn't be very exaggerated to be effective.

It's all really interesting to me.

 

[Sinister]

That stuff is Boxing taught when it was still boxing. Not just punching and covering.

 

[MisterT]

So what do you guys think? Is defense inherent to stance? Why is so much value placed on "keeping your hands up," and do you think this is sound advice all on its own?

Sinister pretty much answered the first part of your question but I'd like to chime in for the second part. My coach insists that beginner boxers "keep the hands up" in an effort to reduce the distance the punches travel. With the exception of certain situation (i.e. like when you're trying to throw an up-jab from out of your opponent's line of sight or when you're trying to throw a punch from a different angle), my coach stresses keeping hands up to lessen the distance they travel as opposed to keeping them up for defensive reasons.

Now, once the boxer become more experienced, he's encouraged to use angles and is given more leeway as to keeping the hands up.

 

[Sinister]

There's a difference between "hands up" and "hands up" though. If people's hands are up and punches are coming at them, they're going to by default use them for defensive purposes. What should be used is drilling of WHAT to do when punches come and how to use body-positioning (and hand-positioning) for defense.

Like here's a jab drill Dadi and I use quite a bit, where they learn not to have to use the lead hand to defend a jab:



Now that same kid, note how his reactions to jab are reflexive, and jerky. But a few weeks of this drill and here's him doing it with another person who was new to it.

 

[Discipulus]

Lotta southpaws in your gym, huh?

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, including myself up there. It's actually good because Southpaws rarely ever get to look at each other and box like normal right-handers do.

I've done this drill with both Vini and Lorena where I turned orthodox, though. It's a slightly different motion. My counter jab goes over theirs and they have to slightly turn to use the rear-hand without lifting it much or gluing it to their heads knuckles-out, so they could still punch even after the deflection.

This drill is a lot more complicated than it looks, though. Like the notion is to go for depth, not distance. You don't want to just make contact, you want to threaten force. Vini knew that, which is why he stepped in with his jabs. Lorena knew to do that as well, but she never quite responded to Vini's jabs right because she stepped back too far after deflecting them, giving Vini control of distance via not perceiving the depth.

 

[Discipulus]

I'm gonna ask one of the guys at my gym to try this with me. Is it something that you think needs a lot of direction to drill properly? Picking off jabs and actively defending with my rear hand is something I've really been meaning to practice, because it gives me a world of trouble in sparring and defense drills.

 

[pheonix5]

Made by my partner Dadi:



And yes, defense is relative to stance (as opposed to hand positioning):

Dude,thank you for posting this.This should be studied over and over.Truly amazing.

 

[Pugilistic]

My trainer makes us do the same drill. Its a lot harder than it looks.

 

[sub_thug]

The Charley Burley video makes me want to get back in the gym right now and train for the next year nonstop. Great video, Sinister.

 

[Discipulus]

For you guys who enjoyed that video, there's another great video made by the same guy on some of Ezzard Charles' tricks.


I particularly like the tactic of bringing the right foot back and around without moving the left, prompting the opponent to follow your perceived pivot only to open up their stance and walk right into the right hand. Methinks it'd work great against an opponent who really gets into the rhythm of pivoting and jabbing. Jab, step back, and fire the right straight.

 

[Sinister]

I'm gonna ask one of the guys at my gym to try this with me. Is it something that you think needs a lot of direction to drill properly? Picking off jabs and actively defending with my rear hand is something I've really been meaning to practice, because it gives me a world of trouble in sparring and defense drills.

You can try it, and if you get footage I can make corrections. But the main principle is depth, not distance, and moving the hand as minimally as possible, turn the body slightly instead.

 

[SAAMAG]

There's a difference between "hands up" and "hands up" though. If people's hands are up and punches are coming at them, they're going to by default use them for defensive purposes. What should be used is drilling of WHAT to do when punches come and how to use body-positioning (and hand-positioning) for defense.

Like here's a jab drill Dadi and I use quite a bit, where they learn not to have to use the lead hand to defend a jab:



Now that same kid, note how his reactions to jab are reflexive, and jerky. But a few weeks of this drill and here's him doing it with another person who was new to it.

I called that the Jab catching drill...I've been doing that since I was a pre-teen. Still use and teach it today. You can do a variation of it where you parry and punch. Great drills to improve reaction and spontaneous counter jabs. When I was doing my stint with JKD, we did that drill in a simultaneous fashion---where the catch and the counter-punch happened at the same time.

 

[Sinister]

Yeah, there's a few variations of it but I don't like it simultaneous because it takes away the ability to learn cadence, and everything is in disarray for a moment when both fighters are blinded, or their sight is narrowed as if staring at someone pointing a gun at them as they hold their own gun...a stalemate. Whereas the traditional method is like fencing exercises, defend, counter-attack, with adherence to foot positioning and facing the opposition's center line.

 

[JWolverine707]

Made by my partner Dadi:



And yes, defense is relative to stance (as opposed to hand positioning):

Love this video! How do you fair this stance for mma? Im finding it harder to execute my punch kick combos. Seems you may be more susceptible to takedowns as well.

 

[td82394]

Love this video! How do you fair this stance for mma? Im finding it harder to execute my punch kick combos. Seems you may be more susceptible to takedowns as well.

I could see kicking with the rear leg being harder, but if you punch your way into it, you can still kick. If anything, a lead kick becomes easier, though. You're already half way there, unless I'm doing it wrong lol. You may be more susceptible to single legs and the weird hybrid MMA high c, that's true. But again, unless I'm doing it wrong, it's not insurmountable unless your takedown defense sucks so bad that you literally can't have even a ***** in your armor.

EDIT:

Oh, uh, my bad, mods. I didn't mean it in that context. Uh... holes I guess?

 

[Soul Rebel 2]

Love this video! How do you fair this stance for mma? Im finding it harder to execute my punch kick combos. Seems you may be more susceptible to takedowns as well.

Unless your BJ Penn and can put one leg behind your head while balancing on a tight rope your going to seriously open yourself to single legs. However you can modify the stance to be more front foot heavy and square but you lose the advantage of advantage of having your head further back and a bladed stance, you however still can easily put your head off centre without sacrificing pretty much anything in your MMA game.