Starting from neutral

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by lethalweapon, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. lethalweapon

    lethalweapon Blue Belt

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    When you and your partner start from neutral(on your knees), are you
    "allowed" to stand during the beginning of the match?

    For instance, you start on your knees and proceed to a grab a sleeve/collar or
    get into some form of a clinch. While the two are engaged, would it be
    "allowed" for one to stand (enough for the knees to be off ground) to get
    leverage or better position?

    Someone pointed out I'm not allowed... that's why we start from knees to begin
    with. If you're gonna stand, might as well start standing.

    My view was that starting from the knees discourages single/double leg takedowns,
    throws, moves that require more space to execute; but standing clinched was fine.
    It was because there's less chance you'll interfer with someone else's session.
     
  2. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

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    If we're starting on the ground we'll generally just take turns in pulling guard. Starting on the knees is pretty artificial and the position rarely happens in competition so there is not much point in spending too much time there.
     
  3. clarkgriswold

    clarkgriswold White Belt

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    My humble opinion is so long as there's room on the mat you can stand to get some leverage once engaged; you kind of have to sometimes, or concede bad position, which is okay too, it's just practice after all, but I stand from time to time and nobody's ever said "hey that's cheating." Obviously it might seem kind of douchy if you just stood up right from the start from the knees, but once your clinched up, grabbing sleeves and lapels, pulling eachother down, going for legs/knees etc. I say it's ok.
     
  4. Resident A-hole

    Resident A-hole Orange Belt

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    The main reason for starting on knees is mat space. There is a sort of unwritten rule at my BJJ school that you can post up only on 1 leg when staring on knees, not completely stand up. Some guys still do it. If it's a guy much smaller than me, I don't mind. But it's sort of cheating to stand against someone your own size on his knees just so you can get top position.
     
  5. colinm

    colinm Brown Belt

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    if you want to fight for top position, you should stand up. imo, starting on your knees is a pretty useless position to practice moves from, so just pull guard.
     
  6. flyingknee16

    flyingknee16 Brown Belt

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    if you have to stand to get leverage, go for iit, because they'll stand up too probably, so it's not really unfair...
     
  7. Flounder

    Flounder Purple Belt

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    But then you both are standing, kind of defeating the purpose of startng on the knees. I would say you prolly shouldn't stand.
     
  8. infamous mattyd

    infamous mattyd Brown Belt

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    tarting from knees is no indication of any sort of skill...I just pull guard
     
  9. Jimmy Cerra

    Jimmy Cerra Amateur Fighter

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    In those cases where mat space is so limited we start from our knees: I'll stand to pass guard sometimes. I don't mind. However, I won't clinch standing since that leads to shots and throws most of the time.
     
  10. pugz

    pugz Green Belt

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    in my experience the advantage of starting from knees is you dont take the lumps you do when doing takedowns. ive got good takedowns but my rolling needs work (in comparisin to the guys im roling with) however because we start from knees most of the time it doesent really come into play. but from the way we roll we only stand for breif periods to make a pass or escape then back to knees we dont really try to emphasise the standing technique.
    hope that helps.
     
  11. knees = gay.

    starting from knees often makes your takedowns lag horribly. if you dont stand how will you improve takedowns? too many bjj guys ignore the takedown. yes it's possible to get taken down and still get the tap but when you're competeing where it counts, that takedown usually determines the match.

    get taken down into an inferior position and that's a huge advantage for somethin. if they're near you skill, that's enough to tip the scales for them. if it's a points match, that's even more of an advantage.

    moral of the story, kill the problem at the root. dont start on knees. if your gym's mat room is so small you can never stand or there are too many people you need to find a free class or new gym if possible. it's hurting your traiing, imo.
     
  12. Bama Zulu

    Bama Zulu Blue Belt

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    If you aren't competing then it doesn't matter if you start on the knees.
     
  13. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    I usually flop in to guard or fall to my side and let them get sidemount, so I can work from there. I am good at holding dominate position when I get there, so I need to learn how to escape from bad positions.
     
  14. stephensharp

    stephensharp Brown Belt

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    Smart man.


    Other than that, I've never seen anyone say "hey, stay on the ground, guys" except at an old Judo club I went to, and it was a safety and space issue as we only had a couple mats, so everyone was going to be crashing into the walls or onto the concrete if we stood up.

    In BJJ, you start on the knees if there's not enough space, or standing if there is. If you stand, try and bring it to the ground. Just don't stand to avoid activity, and there should be no complaints.
     
  15. lethalweapon

    lethalweapon Blue Belt

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    My question wasn't whether to train in neutral or standup.
    When you start from neutral, is there an unwritten rule about
    standing once engaged to get better leverage.

    I understood it's done when mat space is limited, therefore no
    shooting and throws. It's just someone in class pointed out
    how I stood up (just so my knees are off the ground)during our
    clinch to get better position. I thought he was over reacting, cuz
    no one else I rolled with ever complained, but I wanted to be fair.

    Thanks.
     
  16. b0b

    b0b Banned Banned

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    The point that we were making is that starting on the knees suck. There is no reason to stand if you are starting on your knees. Just buckle down and start from a position you want to work from.
     
  17. IMP

    IMP OBLIVION RECORDER

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    We are allowed to stand if it initiates a technique.
     
  18. Resident A-hole

    Resident A-hole Orange Belt

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    I said earlier that it's looked at as unfair if you stand while going for a takedown while the other guy is on knees (at least at my club). Most of the time somebody pulls guard anyway.

    But sure, you can stand during rolling to pass guard, for an ankle/foot lock, or any other move. Thats all fair game.
     

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