Standing arm-locks in Judo

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Anyone ever try them?

Many years ago when I was still competing I got disqualified while applying a variation of this arm-lock.



The ref said I torqued the wrist too, which I did. I wasn't quite familiar with all the rules as I was still a newbie.

Here's an awesome article on gripping which details why the Japanese player lost the match because of his grip.

First Contact and Grip Domination in Judo

 

[s karlyle]

I think if you did the same thing on the ground you my have got away with it....

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

I think if you did the same thing on the ground you my have got away with it....

What's your reasoning?

 

[RJ Green]

there's a rule somebody else will look up later on in this thread that specifically prohibits locking up wakigatame and dropping to the tatame, or using wakigatame to hit an uchimata/harai/taio/etc.

there's pretty much no way to get this locked standing against a resisting opponent without breaking that rule, or their arm. someone might try to contest this point later on in the thread. this will probably start a flame war. they're still wrong.

if you want to armbar someone from standing, you've got flying armbar and the tomoenage-fient-to-armbar to play with.

that's not to say wakigatame isn't way effective in any situation that isn't standing up in judo match. wakigatame is the shit.

you can definitely do it on the ground. it's pretty hard to pry out if you're just rolling, but it's almost always there if you've sprawled out of any forward throw from a headlock, just push their shoulder down and duck out the back.

hapkido guys do a gooseneck/twist on the wrist when they're applying this, which is a whole new level of suck.

it's also really, really shitty if you've got long arms and you're shorter than your opponent. my left elbow is royally fucked up thanks to this move and overzealous junior ranks. HOORAY CHRONIC INJURY!

 

[Darkslide632]

Waki gatame is something I always look for if someone is really sticking their arm out there. At the very least it gives my opponent something to think about. Unfortunately it is a move that has a ton of issues if used in a Judo match.

First, as RJ pointed out, there are rules prohibiting using joint locks to throw people. Now, having said that, ude gaeshi is considered a technical transition to newaza which is allowed, despite the fact that there can be a considerable amount of pressure on the arm when using it. With waki gatame, you can't JUMP to the floor once it is locked it. Meaning that you can't grab the arm bar and just throw your feet out in front of you, landing on your ass. Unfortunately, that's really what needs to happen for it to be most effective... which is problem number 2.

Problem number three is that Judo rules state that any standing submission applied needs to have an IMMEDIATE effect... which basically means your opponent needs to immediately submit. You can't do a flying arm bar, for example, and hang off your opponent.

So with waki gatame you have this very thin line to walk. The arm bar needs to have an immediate effect, which, unless you break their arm, can be difficult from standing... but you have to be extremely careful to keep from being disqualified while dropping directly to the ground, which is where the submission is most effective.

 

[zegrapplez]

i almost got dq'd in a state championships for judo for a flying armlock.

i waited till we had both hit the ground the extend the arm/extend my hips, but the referee did not see it and gave me a warning. he could have dq'd me.

 

[RJ Green]

i almost got dq'd in a state championships for judo for a flying armlock.

i waited till we had both hit the ground the extend the arm/extend my hips, but the referee did not see it and gave me a warning. he could have dq'd me.

ammy refs have liberal interpretations of the rules. i've also seen people called for 'false attacks' for flying armbar. it's also next to impossible to get any decent extension in mid-air unless your opponent stays standing. that would be awkward as hell, and nowhere near as cool looking

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

Hapkido guys do a gooseneck/twist on the wrist when they're applying this, which is a whole new level of suck.

I have a Black Belt in Hapkido and that's where I learned the move initially. Goose necking the wrist plus the added pressure to the elbow makes it a much more effective submission.

I goose-necked the heazy out of the guy's wrist while putting extreme pressure on the elbow and the guy was quite upset to say the least.

If I do a tournament here in Korea I might go deeper and lock the shoulder instead of putting pressure on the elbow.

 

[RJ Green]

I have a Black Belt in Hapkido and that's where I learned the move initially. Goose necking the wrist plus the added pressure to the elbow makes it a much more effective submission.

I goose-necked the heazy out of the guy's wrist while putting extreme pressure on the elbow and the guy was quite upset to say the least.

If I do a tournament here in Korea I might go deeper and lock the shoulder instead of putting pressure on the elbow.

see, i always wondered if you took a knee first if it'd be legal in the judo context, or if that constitutes a dive? whateva.

and yeah, totally learned wakigatame at HKD who did you train under?

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

see, i always wondered if you took a knee first if it'd be legal in the judo context, or if that constitutes a dive? whateva.

and yeah, totally learned wakigatame at HKD who did you train under?

My step-father. I studied it for about 10 years under him and he failed me when I took my 2nd Dan test. Actually, let me rephrase that. He was very objective in his assessment of me and I failed my 2nd Dan test. I actually respect him more for it.

I could have taken the exam again but there was a one year waiting period and I never got back around to it.

That aside, I submitted my paperwork here for my Sho Dan in Judo. I should be getting it back next month or so. I had promotion issues with the various Judo governing bodies back in the U.S. such as them cashing my checks without sending my certifications and so forth. It's all about the money for them.

Korean Judo Association FTW.

 

[RJ Green]

who's your daddy? (seriously)

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

who's your daddy? (seriously)

I don't want to disclose his name here, but he's a 7th degree Black Belt originally in Hwa Rang Do under Joo Bang Lee. In Korea, all the Korean masters of the various forms of Daito-Ryu aikijujutsu trained together under Ji Han Jae (He came out in Bruce Lee's, "Game of Death". He was the guy with the gold belt on) before splitting off into their own splinter groups at some point in the 1960's. That's when Kuk-Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, and Sin Moo Hapkido and those arts came around.

Hwa Rang Do has a sash system, the black sash with a tiger on it represents a master level. Basically, Joo Bang Lee wanted too many royalties from my dad to where he couldn't even make a profit so he split off and changed the name to "Hapkido" because it was more general.

I've seen pictures of my dad teaching U.S. Marines in Camp Pendleton with Joo Bang Lee and his son, Taejoon. This was way back in the early 1980's.

 

[RJ Green]

that's so baller.

I've been training with Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak at Iowa State for the last six years. We had about 30 people from Sun Moon here over the Summer for an international camp. Great times. Awesome people.

 

[Doughbelly]

My step-father. I studied it for about 10 years under him and he failed me when I took my 2nd Dan test. Actually, let me rephrase that. He was very objective in his assessment of me and I failed my 2nd Dan test. I actually respect him more for it.

And you wondered why I thought you were Korean.

Which association are you through? I got my last HKD dan in Korea through KHA.

That aside, I submitted my paperwork here for my Sho Dan in Judo. I should be getting it back next month or so. I had promotion issues with the various Judo governing bodies back in the U.S. such as them cashing my checks without sending my certifications and so forth. It's all about the money for them.

Korean Judo Association FTW.

Right on! KJA yudanja here. No kidding about the USJI - I walked around with a USJI card with 'probationary' dan for years before i gave up on normalizing my judo rank here.

 

[Doughbelly]

that's so baller.

I've been training with Grandmaster Yong Chin Pak at Iowa State for the last six years. We had about 30 people from Sun Moon here over the Summer for an international camp. Great times. Awesome people.

RJ, for some reason, I never put two and two together.

If you're talking to a 4th dan+ in judo, TKD and HKD, you're probably talking to a Yongin grad. Sports/martial arts total package.

 

[RJ Green]

RJ, for some reason, I never put two and two together.

If you're talking to a 4th dan+ in judo, TKD and HKD, you're probably talking to a Yongin grad. Sports/martial arts total package.

You should have (probably have?) seen the gymnastics the Sun Moon crew was doing when they were here. I can barely do a proper roundoff and I think half of them had fulls? Incredible.

 

[ArTofF16hT1ng]

And you wondered why I thought you were Korean.

Which association are you through? I got my last HKD dan in Korea through KHA.

I'm not affiliated with one. I have a 1st Dan under my father and a certificate, but I don't think his school was registered with a national governing body. There's a Hapkido school 5 mins. from my house here in Korea, but I kind of lost my mojo for it. From the ages of 15-18 though, I was really into it. I could do all sorts of flying kicks and some basic standing ones that came through for me in more than a handful of street fights. I might give Hapkido another go to get some of my dexterity back, but as of now Judo is where my passion lies.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the standing arm-lock system in Hapkido. Those are better served for people offering passive-resistance like non-compliant civilians the police have to arrest "gently". It's super hard to wrist lock or chicken wing someone who is trying to punch you in the face. For these instances, Judo is better served.

Right on! KJA yudanja here. No kidding about the USJI - I walked around with a USJI card with 'probationary' dan for years before I gave up on normalizing my judo rank here.

You're a 6th degree Black Belt?

 

[Doughbelly]

I'm not affiliated with one. I have a 1st Dan under my father and a certificate, but I don't think his school was registered with a national governing body. There's a Hapkido school 5 mins. from my house here in Korea, but I kind of lost my mojo for it. From the ages of 15-18 though, I was really into it. I could do all sorts of flying kicks and some basic standing ones that came through for me in more than a handful of street fights. I might give Hapkido another go to get some of my dexterity back, but as of now Judo is where my passion lies.

I loved those demonstration techniques. If I tried half those flying breakfalls off of flying kicks now, I'd break my neck. Every day, jumping over the jukdo a little higher and higher. Good times.

Anyway, my primary gym and teachers were in Kunsan through my summer teenage years at a KHF, which is what I think most Yongin graduates are, but I had an uncle who handled all of my promotions since I was a kid. It made sense then, but when I think about it now, I'm not sure that's the right way to handle it.

That said, I'm not a huge fan of the standing arm-lock system in Hapkido. Those are better served for people offering passive-resistance like non-compliant civilians the police have to arrest "gently". It's super hard to wrist lock or chicken wing someone who is trying to punch you in the face. For these instances, Judo is better served.

I think you pegged that age range well, because that's when your body's flexible enough to do it and your mind is also, eh, flexible enough to buy it's efficacy. I have my own opinions regarding standing HKD armlocks and they're none too flattering. If there's anything that remained with me of value, it was the various methods of kick catching.

I haven't done or even thought about hapkido in almost ten years, same as TKD. I haven't been involved in the KMA community for a long time. I hold higher rank in TKD and HKD than I do in judo, but I think of myself as judo guy.

You're a 6th degree Black Belt?

No, judo 2nd dan. I wanted to go for my 3rd, but it became a big hassle. I paid money to USJI I think twice to get my reg numbers to compete as a shodan, but then things got screwed up because the US instructor and association I wanted to promote through was USJA or USJF. I tried twice, first time in the late 90s and second time about five years ago before I gave up.

I'm not really an active judoka in any meaningful sense anymore anyway.

 

[Doughbelly]

You should have (probably have?) seen the gymnastics the Sun Moon crew was doing when they were here. I can barely do a proper roundoff and I think half of them had fulls? Incredible.

I'm not familiar with them, but if they're like any of the other student-athlete PE/sports science programs in Korea, they don't really have the same respect for gravity as regular folk.

What I meant earlier was that theirs is a much less BS approach to martial arts. Less tradition for the sake of tradition and generally a much more sports-science based approach to martial arts.

 

[RJ Green]

I'm not familiar with them, but if they're like any of the other student-athlete PE/sports science programs in Korea, they don't really have the same respect for gravity as regular folk.

What I meant earlier was that theirs is a much less BS approach to martial arts. Less tradition for the sake of tradition and generally a much more sports-science based approach to martial arts.

for sure. they ham it up in demos, but when you're actually practicing with them you really appreciate how strong the grips are and how fluid the motions are.

then there's the kicking...holy shit.

what i've always tried to stress for newbies in Hapkido is that not all of the moves are designed to 'work' from the context they're learned in, but to improve their appreciation of their balance, uke's balance, and the footwork. that and improve their ukemi, which for my money is the most important part of the art.

Hapkido was the best thing I did for my Judo. well, until I let blue belts practice wakigatame on me...