Sport Jiu-Jitsu in a street fight, Its not all the same!

[StayHumble]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6344FL3T-bU

skip to 11min in to hear the good stuff.

Alot of schools are wrapped up in winning tournaments and medals and neglecting the Self-Defense aspect of the art, the most important part of the art, the reason most of us began training was from watching gracie fights and the older UFC's. Sure sport Jiu- Jitsu is still Jiu-Jitsu and it still helps your chances at winning in a fight , but its not the same. Going to turtle as a reflex could get you hurt in street fight, holding onto your closed guard as a reflex when someone picks you up in a fight might not end to well.Grappling predictable partners in your gym is not the same as grappling with spazzy unpredicatable opponents, the last thing you want is for an enemie's reaction to suprise you and put you on bottom in the street because its not what your used to in the gym. practice it all folks. Ryron and Rener show a great way to spar with self-defence aspects. We learn to stay comfortable in bad positions , but the untrained man on the street will not be doing that.

 

[IamnotJonFitch]

I use sport jiu jitsu in the gym 100000x more than I fight "in the street".

The one time I did, I took him down and talked him out of it. Just saying.

 

[lonewolf210]

I carry mace for self defense if I really need something. I was good at using it as soon as I bought it, rather then taking years to become proficient. It's a lot more efficient.

 

[Uchi Mata]

You know what really helps you to learn how to fight? Training MMA. Getting punched in the face and having to learn how to deal with it the hard way. You know what doesn't help much? Having a non-resisting opponent bear hug you from behind and you reach down and grab his leg from between yours to 'throw' him. All the TMA style self defense stuff Rorion's boys sell is exactly that: LARPing TMA self defense. It's not bad in theory, but most self defense isn't. The problem is that it relies on unrealistic practice scenarios, whereas supposedly 'impractical' sport BJJ gets you very ready for what really matters in a street fight, the ability to deal with a high pressure situation with someone really coming after you. It also gets you in good shape, which is hugely important in any confrontation. There's a reason a college football player is usually going to kick the shit out of any self defense TMA master: he's in shape, used to contact, and doesn't panic during a confrontation. So if you really want to get good at self defense, just go to an MMA gym and learn to fight against other trained fighters. If you're not willing to do that, just admit that you really don't care all that much about self defense.

 

[Kirra]

Not this fucking thread again... Oh and, inb4 JohnSouth

 

[StayHumble]

you took the guy down and talked him down thats great thats probrably the best case scenario, if a guy 50 pounds heavier suprise trips you to the ground and you don't no how to manage distance and block punches that might be a problem, just because you don't get attacked on the street often does'nt mean you should neglect it.

 

[StayHumble]

You know what really helps you to learn how to fight? Training MMA. Getting punched in the face and having to learn how to deal with it the hard way. You know what doesn't help much? Having a non-resisting opponent bear hug you from behind and you reach down and grab his leg from between yours to 'throw' him. All the TMA style self defense stuff Rorion's boys sell is exactly that: LARPing TMA self defense. It's not bad in theory, but most self defense isn't. The problem is that it relies on unrealistic practice scenarios, whereas supposedly 'impractical' sport BJJ gets you very ready for what really matters in a street fight, the ability to deal with a high pressure situation with someone really coming after you. It also gets you in good shape, which is hugely important in any confrontation. There's a reason a college football player is usually going to kick the shit out of any self defense TMA master: he's in shape, used to contact, and doesn't panic during a confrontation. So if you really want to get good at self defense, just go to an MMA gym and learn to fight against other trained fighters. If you're not willing to do that, just admit that you really don't care all that much about self defense.

there's a reason many weaker less athletic, smaller people join Jiu-Jitsu, it uses techniques for the smaller weaker person defeat a larger attacker. It is a gentle art but also very helpful for self-defence, thats why its appealing. Fighting MMA is fine, even though there is a huge mentality difference in most cases, not everyone is tough and rough enough to just join MMA, thats what makes Jiu Jitsu a great option.
How could It be unrealistic scenarios if there is a ton of footage of the older gracies defeating opponents with the Self-Defence aspect of Jiu-Jitsu? Sport BJJ does help, but trying to get under someone In half guard, might get you KO'd

 

[Blacklabel]

There's still people that don't cross-train muay thai?

 

[kpoz12]

Helio invented leverage.

 

[crash90]

there's a reason many weaker less athletic, smaller people join Jiu-Jitsu, it uses techniques for the smaller weaker person defeat a larger attacker. It is a gentle art but also very helpful for self-defence, thats why its appealing. Fighting MMA is fine, even though there is a huge mentality difference in most cases, not everyone is tough and rough enough to just join MMA, thats what makes Jiu Jitsu a great option.
How could It be unrealistic scenarios if there is a ton of footage of the older gracies defeating opponents with the Self-Defence aspect of Jiu-Jitsu ? Sport BJJ does help, but trying to get under someone In half guard, might get you KO'd

Nice fallacy. My first instructor here in Colorado (who passed on recently) came up directly under the Gracies in the 90's in California. He particpated in many a Gracie Challenge. Your recollection of these older guys only using is myopic and incorrect.

Many of the older guys trained/cross-trained in Vale Tudo or other martial arts. In no event did you see them only using the TMA based self defense (i.e. bear hug defense) stuff. You saw them use basic "close the distance-->clinch-->takedown" method. This same system is also the base of any wrestler/BJJ guy in MMA. They learned to do these things by getting punched in the face, facing aggression on the feet, and generally getting the shit kicked out them.

As has been well pointed out by Uchi and others you are more likely to get prepared for a confrontation through "sport" jiujitsu in that it prepare you for a fully resisting opponent. Really to modify your sport JJ for the street is pretty straight forward. Have 1 or 2 take downs and a decent base. Have you ever done any form of grappling with someone who does not train? Takedowns/top control is very easy because you are used to people who can both: (1) freak out/spaz out, and/or (2) combine and/or use technique. Now that you are down to someone who can only spaz out things get much easier.

 

[Uchi Mata]

there's a reason many weaker less athletic, smaller people join Jiu-Jitsu, it uses techniques for the smaller weaker person defeat a larger attacker. It is a gentle art but also very helpful for self-defence, thats why its appealing. Fighting MMA is fine, even though there is a huge mentality difference in most cases, not everyone is tough and rough enough to just join MMA, thats what makes Jiu Jitsu a great option.
How could It be unrealistic scenarios if there is a ton of footage of the older gracies defeating opponents with the Self-Defence aspect of Jiu-Jitsu? Sport BJJ does help, but trying to get under someone In half guard, might get you KO'd

Show me that footage. Show me any footage of Helio or Carlson or anyone else in a fight using the self defense stuff Ryron and Rener teach. Show me a video of Royce using self defense BJJ in the early UFCs. Show me. I don't think you can.

What you can show me is all those guys using basic BJJ to control their opponents and work towards submissions. Okay, great. What decent sport BJJ guy couldn't do the same? Is Royce's armbar from guard or RNC different somehow, more 'self defense', than what someone like Romulo Barral would use? I don't think so.

As for joining BJJ because you're not tough enough for MMA, fine, but you're still going to get more benefit out of rolling hard to learn how to deal with tough, resisting opponents plus getting in shape than you are working on theoretical self defense. If you want to restrict the techniques used to ones that will work in a fight, that's fine too. If you want to roll with punches to work on defending punches, great (though then you're getting into MMA territory, which you may not be tough enough for). But 'grab my wrist, I kick you in the shin and then standing arm lock you' is useless because you can't train it full speed in any kind of realistic scenario.

The best self defense style BJJ that I've ever seen is Javier Vasquez, because he just has his students roll hard with punches and doesn't focus a lot on sport specific positions. That's what I'd focus on if I was really after self defense BJJ. But Javi was a good MMA pro, so maybe his school would be too tough for you. As if you can somehow learn to fight without getting hit a little.

 

[no fat chicks]

I love to see either of these guys in an mma fight.

 

[StayHumble]

Nice fallacy. My first instructor here in Colorado (who passed on recently) came up directly under the Gracies in the 90's in California. He particpated in many a Gracie Challenge. Your recollection of these older guys only using is myopic and incorrect.

Many of the older guys trained/cross-trained in Vale Tudo or other martial arts. In no event did you see them only using the TMA based self defense (i.e. bear hug defense) stuff. You saw them use basic "close the distance-->clinch-->takedown" method. This same system is also the base of any wrestler/BJJ guy in MMA. They learned to do these things by getting punched in the face, facing aggression on the feet, and generally getting the shit kicked out them.

As has been well pointed out by Uchi and others you are more likely to get prepared for a confrontation through "sport" jiujitsu in that it prepare you for a fully resisting opponent. Really to modify your sport JJ for the street is pretty straight forward. Have 1 or 2 take downs and a decent base. Have you ever done any form of grappling with someone who does not train? Takedowns/top control is very easy because you are used to people who can both: (1) freak out/spaz out, and/or (2) combine and/or use technique. Now that you are down to someone who can only spaz out things get much easier.

my point is there are techniques that work, the gracies have shown it over and over, if you practice those moves it will help you for self defence,drilling with resistance or not, a reflex is a reflex. I'm not comparing MMA guys to Jiu-Jitsu guys, the reason people join jiu-jitsu is because its a proven method and is great for a weaker persons chances to defeat a larger attacker. Not everyone is as gritty and tough as an MMA fighter that does'nt mean they shouldn't have a way to train self defence.

Sport Jiu-Jitsu is not all its cracked up to be, yanking on someones collar hasn't been helping black belts control posture in UFC has it? having a decent base doesn't mean anything against someone 50 pounds heavier who explodes off his back for his life. Take down, top control easy against untrained person? arugable statement, especially if the guys bigger.

all it takes is 1 elbow, 1 slam , 1 good shot even and a street fight could be over , continue on to tell me how yanking on collars and playing spider guard is street applicable.

 

[dAfTiE]

Show me that footage. Show me any footage of Helio or Carlson or anyone else in a fight using the self defense stuff Ryron and Rener teach. Show me a video of Royce using self defense BJJ in the early UFCs. Show me. I don't think you can.

What you can show me is all those guys using basic BJJ to control their opponents and work towards submissions. Okay, great. What decent sport BJJ guy couldn't do the same? Is Royce's armbar from guard or RNC different somehow, more 'self defense', than what someone like Romulo Barral would use? I don't think so.

As for joining BJJ because you're not tough enough for MMA, fine, but you're still going to get more benefit out of rolling hard to learn how to deal with tough, resisting opponents plus getting in shape than you are working on theoretical self defense. If you want to restrict the techniques used to ones that will work in a fight, that's fine too. If you want to roll with punches to work on defending punches, great (though then you're getting into MMA territory, which you may not be tough enough for). But 'grab my wrist, I kick you in the shin and then standing arm lock you' is useless because you can't train it full speed in any kind of realistic scenario.

The best self defense style BJJ that I've ever seen is Javier Vasquez, because he just has his students roll hard with punches and doesn't focus a lot on sport specific positions. That's what I'd focus on if I was really after self defense BJJ. But Javi was a good MMA pro, so maybe his school would be too tough for you. As if you can somehow learn to fight without getting hit a little.

It's amazing to me that anyone could discount the value of liveness in training. I'm saying this as someone with years of aikido LARPing experience. Great fun, never once thought it would help me much in a fight beyond being excellent at falling down without injuring myself too badly.

That said, having attended some extra-carricular training sessions with karate/mt/judo/silat/etc guys some of the techniques kinda work, but four two hour long sessions were more effective at sussing out which ones could work than two years of side-stepping overhead straight arm head strikes and wrist grabbing. "not that one. no, thumb over. like that."

Still great fun though, and personally I fall down all the time and I've never been in a real street fight, so good ukemi is infinitely more useful than being able to beat someone's ass in my life.

 

[peregrine]

I am always amazed at how many older martial artists and coaches espouse these civil and knight like values. When in reality, most in their youth were thugs, street fighters, etc.

Here, Relson uses some of the techniques his family teaches. http://bjjvideovault.com/relson-gracie-vs-karate-instructor-in-1975/

The self defense techniques imo are best used as a guideline, you need to put in the work and spar it to find what works and doesn't.

 

[StayHumble]

Show me that footage. Show me any footage of Helio or Carlson or anyone else in a fight using the self defense stuff Ryron and Rener teach. Show me a video of Royce using self defense BJJ in the early UFCs. Show me. I don't think you can.

What you can show me is all those guys using basic BJJ to control their opponents and work towards submissions. Okay, great. What decent sport BJJ guy couldn't do the same? Is Royce's armbar from guard or RNC different somehow, more 'self defense', than what someone like Romulo Barral would use? I don't think so.

As for joining BJJ because you're not tough enough for MMA, fine, but you're still going to get more benefit out of rolling hard to learn how to deal with tough, resisting opponents plus getting in shape than you are working on theoretical self defense. If you want to restrict the techniques used to ones that will work in a fight, that's fine too. If you want to roll with punches to work on defending punches, great (though then you're getting into MMA territory, which you may not be tough enough for). But 'grab my wrist, I kick you in the shin and then standing arm lock you' is useless because you can't train it full speed in any kind of realistic scenario.

The best self defense style BJJ that I've ever seen is Javier Vasquez, because he just has his students roll hard with punches and doesn't focus a lot on sport specific positions. That's what I'd focus on if I was really after self defense BJJ. But Javi was a good MMA pro, so maybe his school would be too tough for you. As if you can somehow learn to fight without getting hit a little.

I wasn't talking about myself not being tough enough for MMA, I knew you'd like to assume though, I've been in a few fights I have a good understanding how things play out, I've also earned my schools respect on my toughness. your immediatley jumping to black belts for examples lol, look at the blues and purples of the world many of them completely ignore ignore space management leave massive openings for strikes . No one said you can learn to fight through what I'm saying,you can learn to SURVIVE.

Most of the Self-Defense aspect is managing the space and clinching, headlock escapes and trips which all the guys you just listed are fully aware of and used. BJJ controls distance in a different way, ya they control RDLR with foot on hip, half guard with framing against throat and knee shield etc. BUT they also don't hold posture down in half guard ( how many MMA fighters get brutally beaten in MMA from HG) ,they use wrist control in closed guard when they opponent postures up, they allow themselves to be lifted off the mat in closed guard still trying to go for a triangle taking advantage of the rules that are against self defence. Double wrist control is not safe with strikes.

 

[Veiled Threat]

You know what really helps you to learn how to fight? Training MMA. Getting punched in the face and having to learn how to deal with it the hard way. You know what doesn't help much? Having a non-resisting opponent bear hug you from behind and you reach down and grab his leg from between yours to 'throw' him. All the TMA style self defense stuff Rorion's boys sell is exactly that: LARPing TMA self defense. It's not bad in theory, but most self defense isn't. The problem is that it relies on unrealistic practice scenarios, whereas supposedly 'impractical' sport BJJ gets you very ready for what really matters in a street fight, the ability to deal with a high pressure situation with someone really coming after you. It also gets you in good shape, which is hugely important in any confrontation. There's a reason a college football player is usually going to kick the shit out of any self defense TMA master: he's in shape, used to contact, and doesn't panic during a confrontation. So if you really want to get good at self defense, just go to an MMA gym and learn to fight against other trained fighters. If you're not willing to do that, just admit that you really don't care all that much about self defense.

"Having a non-resisting opponent bear hug you from behind and you reach down and grab his leg from between yours to 'throw' him."
- oh , so this is SD BJJ?

"Training MMA"
- yes, in every street fight we don't allow soccer kicks and have a ref and follow the unified rules, don't want to get kicked in the face, just get down in a three point stance, oh and we wear 4 oz gloves and a cup

"Getting punched in the face and having to learn how to deal with it the hard way"
- this PARTIALLY right...get punched in the face in a non safe/sparring manner = get into a real fight.
there is nothing going to prepare you for getting in a real fight/sd situation than getting in a real fight in real life and not playing "fight dress up" with unrealistic treatment of being a "downed" opponent and padding and gloves
I mean why do this mma larping?
how many people who are going to attack you on the streets are wearing 4 oz gloves and will not soccer kick you if they could?

 

[Nnedd]

I don't know how anyone can listen to Royler talk for more than 10 seconds.

 

[thugpoet]

Omg people, if self defense boils down to running the fuck away.
This self defense nonsense is gibberish. If you are in a street fight then you have some poor choices, and if you are in a situation where you are being robbed then you need to calm down and give them what they want.

Nobody talks this crap about boxing or muay Thai.

 

[peregrine]

Sometimes I think authors of articles TROLL or throw out wild posts to gather information and research.

"Having a non-resisting opponent bear hug you from behind and you reach down and grab his leg from between yours to 'throw' him."
- oh , so this is SD BJJ?

"Training MMA"
- yes, in every street fight we don't allow soccer kicks and have a ref and follow the unified rules, don't want to get kicked in the face, just get down in a three point stance, oh and we wear 4 oz gloves and a cup

"Getting punched in the face and having to learn how to deal with it the hard way"
- this PARTIALLY right...get punched in the face in a non safe/sparring manner = get into a real fight.
there is nothing going to prepare you for getting in a real fight/sd situation than getting in a real fight in real life and not playing "fight dress up" with unrealistic treatment of being a "downed" opponent and padding and gloves
I mean why do this mma larping?
how many people who are going to attack you on the streets are wearing 4 oz gloves and will not soccer kick you if they could?

For self defense and combatives you should be able to negotiate incoming strikes.

Training mma is an effective link between pure grappling, and a street fight. It could be used as a progression. This frees up the noodle by reducing task load because you are in a familiar situation.
Gloves and cups are worn for the safety of participants, it enables them to practice relatively safely on a repeated basis.
Downed opponents^. Few people are willing to train an all out sparring match that bypasses mma rules, on the contrary many people will spar you under mma rules. This allows one to practice their craft repeatedly and against many types of opponents. When sparring under these mma rules, the crafty self defense oriented fighter should know when Pride rules or pure street techniques like soccer kicks to the dome would come into play.
MMA larping.
So why not just train MMA? vs bjj or a grappling specialty? Because the ceiling on grappling skill is limited in MMA vs a niche sport that allows you to repetitively safely execute techniques in opposition to worrying about getting your face mashed in.

Veiled Threat what kind of training do you do?