So what is the best sword fighting to learn?

[Gregolian]

I have fought many times with Shinai, as the other art I do is Gumdo. A shinai is completely different from steel. It is much lighter, it does not bind, it does not transmit any sense of fuhlen.

The techniques of Kendo are highly optimised for the ruleset of kendo and the use of the Shinai. It has specific targets, little in the way of grappling, and being competitive naturally privileges offense over defense.

It isn't swordfighting, but rather an art that is derived from swordfighting. If you fought a sword match the way you fight a kendo match, both fighters would kill each other very quickly.

That isn't intended to demean it. Its a very worthy art. But it is very different from the Kenjutsu schools it derives from. The actual sword techniques in kendo are preserved in the Kata.

Maybe my dojo is a bit different but we still learn some of the "pre WWII" kendo that has the little judo throws and trips in it as dirty little tricks

 

[Osstopher McGi]

Kenjutsu is a fine option, but genuine kenjutsu is very hard to find outside of Japan. You may be able to find a shinkendo club in your area, which is a Japanese sword art. If cutting is your thing, Iaido is becoming common. Haedong Gumdo is a korean art based on Toyama Ryu Kenjutsu, and its becoming quite common.

There are a large number of kenjutsu focused koryu bujutsu schools across the world now. Depending on location and dedication it's not impossible to learn; however koryu are notorious for being very exclusive.

I have trained and worked with/alongside some koryu schools in the past, but have never been accepted for membership due to having tattoos. It may be different now, but at the time it was a no-no for gaijin to have tattoos. There are some extremely exclusive ryuha which include tattooed Japanese members but your speculation is as good as mine there...

Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu or an associated school would be probably the widest spread and least exclusive koryu school from what I know of them.

There's some really cool HEMA sword schools around too.

Specifically to OP: If you really think about it, you will never be likely to be in a situation where you will be able to justify use of a sword (shinken/live blade) against another man in a real hostile situation or self defense scenario. This actually opens more doors than it closes, as far as answering your question goes. Due to the fact that you would only be really learning an art for the sake of learning the art and/or preserving and continuing the flow of knowledge, you would be best to really think about which sword art appeals the most to you for whatever reason. Or whichever one you think is the "coolest". And learn that. If yourself and each of your friends were to all separately pursue the sword art they preferred, you could then meet regularly to "spar" against one another using training weapons (ie. bokken, iaito) and potentially have a lot of casual "style vs style" fun. Maybe even make a Youtube channel... I'd watch.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I have fought many times with Shinai, as the other art I do is Gumdo. A shinai is completely different from steel. It is much lighter, it does not bind, it does not transmit any sense of fuhlen.

The techniques of Kendo are highly optimised for the ruleset of kendo and the use of the Shinai. It has specific targets, little in the way of grappling, and being competitive naturally privileges offense over defense.

It isn't swordfighting, but rather an art that is derived from swordfighting. If you fought a sword match the way you fight a kendo match, both fighters would kill each other very quickly.

That isn't intended to demean it. Its a very worthy art. But it is very different from the Kenjutsu schools it derives from. The actual sword techniques in kendo are preserved in the Kata.

Yes I personally prefer a correctly balanced bokken to a shinai - in fact I have never seen any koryu practitioner use a shinai. Personally I like to use an iaito for practicing, with occasional very careful and deliberated shinken training (such as kata/drills with a partner) which is the way I was taught what little kenjutsu I have been taught.
The shinken training teaches one a respect for the blade in terms of movement and attitude, if that makes sense. Perhaps I haven't explained that all too well but it is the best I can do lol.

 

[Mr Bologna**]

I dont understand kendo and after watching some youtube videos it looks pretty stupid and doesnt look skillful. Im gonna watch fencing now.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Yes I personally prefer a correctly balanced bokken to a shinai - in fact I have never seen any koryu practitioner use a shinai. Personally I like to use an iaito for practicing, with occasional very careful and deliberated shinken training (such as kata/drills with a partner) which is the way I was taught what little kenjutsu I have been taught.
The shinken training teaches one a respect for the blade in terms of movement and attitude, if that makes sense. Perhaps I haven't explained that all too well but it is the best I can do lol.

I like mixing up shinai and steel in my training and freeplay. While a shinai is not a sword, it does allow you to fight at a much higher intensity, and occasionally fighting at this intensity has given me an edge I think. But nothing matches the feel of steel!

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I like mixing up shinai and steel in my training and freeplay. While a shinai is not a sword, it does allow you to fight at a much higher intensity, and occasionally fighting at this intensity has given me an edge I think. But nothing matches the feel of steel!

The only people I have ever seen using shinai are kendo practitioners, all of the koryu kenjutsu practitioners I have known use bokken for training rather than shinai (as do I). Fighting at full intensity with a bokken helps one to learn to avoid the opponent's cuts very quickly...

 

[MarcoW]

I have watched some HEMA tournaments and they are all fought with blunt steel swords and some kind of fancy armor made of mesh or something?
Where can one get this armor?
I hope to commit myself to learning and maybe going to one of these tournaments one day.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

The only people I have ever seen using shinai are kendo practitioners, all of the koryu kenjutsu practitioners I have known use bokken for training rather than shinai (as do I). Fighting at full intensity with a bokken helps one to learn to avoid the opponent's cuts very quickly...

Some HEMA groups train with specially modified Shinai. Most use steel. I use steel exclusively when fighting HEMA.

I use Shinai when I am fighting in my Gumdo group. I sometimes mix in some western techniques when we are doing friendly sparring.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

I have watched some HEMA tournaments and they are all fought with blunt steel swords and some kind of fancy armor made of mesh or something?
Where can one get this armor?
I hope to commit myself to learning and maybe going to one of these tournaments one day.

We dont use armour per se for unarmoured longsword. We have a thick padded jacket called a Gambeson or Fencing jacket. Some of these gamebsons are modified with plastic inserts over the chest. We also wear protection on the joints, special gloves and often a plastic fencing plastron.

In the old days we made our own gear or made do with cobbled together bits. Now companies like Absolute Force and SPES are making specially made gear

http://histfenc.us/
http://www.absoluteforcesports.com/store/products/category/hema/

It is generally considered gauche to over protect yourself in unarmoured fighting. In HEMA we believe that a healthy dose of fear helps us to respect the weapon and keep us honest

 

[Osstopher McGi]

Some HEMA groups train with specially modified Shinai. Most use steel. I use steel exclusively when fighting HEMA.

I use Shinai when I am fighting in my Gumdo group. I sometimes mix in some western techniques when we are doing friendly sparring.

Why shinai rather than a bokken though? I have never come across a shinai that felt correctly balanced, however all of the bokken which I have purchased from Japan have been balanced correctly which is an important factor in being able to train properly.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Why shinai rather than a bokken though? I have never come across a shinai that felt correctly balanced, however all of the bokken which I have purchased from Japan have been balanced correctly which is an important factor in being able to train properly.

Quite frankly, if I hit you with a bokken at anything like speed, I would seriously hurt you.

Bokken are fine for forms and drills and practicing cuts. For serious sparring, they are far too dangerous.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

Quite frankly, if I hit you with a bokken at anything like speed, I would seriously hurt you.

Bokken are fine for forms and drills and practicing cuts. For serious sparring, they are far too dangerous.

I have sparred seriously with bokken for years. I am fine. Also none of the koryu bujutsu groups which I have met and trained with ever used shinai. I have seen those guys go very hard at each other with bokken. Are you saying koryu has it wrong...?

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I have fought many times with Shinai, as the other art I do is Gumdo. A shinai is completely different from steel. It is much lighter, it does not bind, it does not transmit any sense of fuhlen.

The techniques of Kendo are highly optimised for the ruleset of kendo and the use of the Shinai. It has specific targets, little in the way of grappling, and being competitive naturally privileges offense over defense.

It isn't swordfighting, but rather an art that is derived from swordfighting. If you fought a sword match the way you fight a kendo match, both fighters would kill each other very quickly.

That isn't intended to demean it. Its a very worthy art. But it is very different from the Kenjutsu schools it derives from. The actual sword techniques in kendo are preserved in the Kata.

Oh actually having re-read this post, I would say the two of us agree on many of the same points, albeit from different angles.

Also, in one of your posts you mentioned authentic kenjutsu is difficult to find outside of Japan; I later mentioned Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and other koryu schools which are reasonably wide spread. I meant to also mention Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu which is another fairly large ryu, worldwide, but failed to mention it at the time. I haven't seen a response to this but I'm interested in what your opinion is on the authenticity of groups such as these.

 

[WrestlinganJudo]

My friends and I are all interested in swords and wanted to get prolypropolene training swords to practice.

I always wanted to do kendo and still do, but in all the kendo vs fencing videos I see fencing usually wins.

Is longsword effective as well?

Armor suits aren't really in use anymore so I figure effectiveness against armor doesn't matter as much as ability to score a hit and the critical damage of that hit.

Are horses involved?
What type of armor is involved?--never mind, you said no armor.
Are you fighting in formation?
Do you have a shield?
Does your opponent have a shield?
Are you working in conjunction with Pike man? Will there be a push of the pikes?
Are there firearms where you are going to be doing battle, if so what type?
Will you be up against a line of bayonets as your guys are doing volley fire as the ranks close?
Will the fighting be one on one or group on group? Dueling and self defense was often different than war.
Are you carrying another weapon along with your sword like a pole arm or a bow?
Sometimes it make a difference if you are a defender or the attacker. Guarding the gate of a castle is different than many other uses?

Yep, I am being a smart ass but these things made a difference back when swords were used.

Learn how to shoot and learn how to fight hand to hand. Swords are mostly obsolete unless you expect zombies and don't want to burn through ammo.

If you are going back in your time machine to where there is a Push of the Pikes you will find each side has more than one sword type. The small sword and buckler men were very important to to go low under your enemies pikes during the push but you are fodder for the other swords man. In the pre-firearm era many of the times the sword was not the main weapon. Often times pole arms were more important, other times it was archers. Swords were common because you could carry one with out using your hands. Hard to hang a halberd, lance, or yari on your person.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

I have sparred seriously with bokken for years. I am fine. Also none of the koryu bujutsu groups which I have met and trained with ever used shinai. I have seen those guys go very hard at each other with bokken. Are you saying koryu has it wrong...?

I have no idea what Koryu does. All I am saying is that I can smash a cinder block with a good bokken. Its a dangerous thing to use in all out sparring. When I spar Gumdo, I use a shinai. When I spar HEMA I use rebated steel.

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

Oh actually having re-read this post, I would say the two of us agree on many of the same points, albeit from different angles.

Also, in one of your posts you mentioned authentic kenjutsu is difficult to find outside of Japan; I later mentioned Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu and other koryu schools which are reasonably wide spread. I meant to also mention Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu which is another fairly large ryu, worldwide, but failed to mention it at the time. I haven't seen a response to this but I'm interested in what your opinion is on the authenticity of groups such as these.

I can't say to be honest. From what I understand its fully 'legit' if the instructor has has a license of transmission from the main dojo.

 

[MarcoW]

Are horses involved?
What type of armor is involved?--never mind, you said no armor.
Are you fighting in formation?
Do you have a shield?
Does your opponent have a shield?
Are you working in conjunction with Pike man? Will there be a push of the pikes?
Are there firearms where you are going to be doing battle, if so what type?
Will you be up against a line of bayonets as your guys are doing volley fire as the ranks close?
Will the fighting be one on one or group on group? Dueling and self defense was often different than war.
Are you carrying another weapon along with your sword like a pole arm or a bow?
Sometimes it make a difference if you are a defender or the attacker. Guarding the gate of a castle is different than many other uses?

Yep, I am being a smart ass but these things made a difference back when swords were used.

Learn how to shoot and learn how to fight hand to hand. Swords are mostly obsolete unless you expect zombies and don't want to burn through ammo.

If you are going back in your time machine to where there is a Push of the Pikes you will find each side has more than one sword type. The small sword and buckler men were very important to to go low under your enemies pikes during the push but you are fodder for the other swords man. In the pre-firearm era many of the times the sword was not the main weapon. Often times pole arms were more important, other times it was archers. Swords were common because you could carry one with out using your hands. Hard to hang a halberd, lance, or yari on your person.

nah I want to learn sword.

 

[MarcoW]

I have no idea what Koryu does. All I am saying is that I can smash a cinder block with a good bokken. Its a dangerous thing to use in all out sparring. When I spar Gumdo, I use a shinai. When I spar HEMA I use rebated steel.

why is it safer to use a steel sword then a wooden bokken?

 

[SweetDaddySiki]

The steel trainers we use bend and flex. This helps to absorb and dissipate energy when you are struck. A bokken or waster doesn't. Its rigid. Its like being struck with a bat. I have actually been hurt more with the shinai than I have with the steel trainers.

 

[Osstopher McGi]

I can't say to be honest. From what I understand its fully 'legit' if the instructor has has a license of transmission from the main dojo.

Menkyo from the hombu, yeah. I was directing the question at your statement that authentic kenjutsu is difficult to find outside of Japan, and my response about some of the more common ryu being available widely outside of Japan.