So much for the " A-Level " athlete...

[560ti]

Not just that but did hardy actually have any real and consistent martial arts training over years ? I highly doubt it .

He did not. His first experience with any art was him starting to train in Q3 of 2016 (so he was at this point like 3 years removed from his 14 years of competitive football before he even began to train).

There was hardly anything A-level about that, he was washed up. He even took a break in 2017 from martial arts training because he was trying to make a roster for arena football and Spring league (lol at some arena football hopeful being a "sherdog a-level athlete")

 

[bowened]

Training wasn't really the issue with Brock- he just wasn't a good enough fighter. Whatever is similar or different about their training-, the indisputable part about it all is that Brock's athleticism was not good enough to best Cain- Cain was just a more adept athlete in MMA skills. That's what the whole A level athlete argument ignores- some people are just better at some things regardless of overall athleticism- specialized skills.

I don't think Brock did anything special compared to what other accomplished wrestlers his size could do in MMA. Especially at HW where competition is thin. Brock could probably do well at HW now, but so could any big wrestler. That's just because HW sucks.

Cain was a clearly a better fighter and Brock was obviously less skilled. Thats exactly my point.

Brock was able to win the belt and defend it twice with a fraction of the skill and training that Cain had. Because of his unique physical traits and athleticism.

 

[KhosVaziri]

Thats exactly what the argument always was.


Insecure Shertards made it otherwise.

revisionist history.

 

[KhosVaziri]

Spivak would be embarrassed of the uncoordinated nerds using his win to project their insecurities about suckin at sports

Yeah, I'm sure you know what Spivak thinks. People are just pointing out the nfl and nba guys and college football and basketball players that did show up to mma have not destroyed divisions or anything.

Again, the argument is switched to an impossible scenario that's pointless to talk about and doesn't mean anything. So you want to argue if a 1st round NFL draft pick competed in combat sports from a young age, they'd be ufc champion? it would depend entirely on the person and if they can give and take punishment. So then you want to argue that out of that small pool of athletes there must be someone who would be able to be a fighter.

Ok but very few guys have the balls to put their life on the line in a cage. Even if mma had the same incentives as basketball and football, there still wouldn't be the same level of participation.

What's the point of this? whoever has the balls and fire in them to fight, fights.

As we've seen many times, guys with an athletic advantage can still get their ass beat. This is a moot point.

I dont engage in GOAT arguments or hypothetical situations where guys go against each other prime vs prime but I see more value in those arguments then what we're talking about here.

 

[KhosVaziri]

Cain was a clearly a better fighter and Brock was obviously less skilled. Thats exactly my point.

Brock was able to win the belt and defend it twice with a fraction of the skill and training that Cain had. Because of his unique physical traits and athleticism.

He was a better credentialed wrestler than Cain and yes a physical freak. He also had good style match ups for him to get the belt and defend it and he had a chin of an iron which is just God given and has nothing to do with being an athlete. That's what saved him against Carwin because he got his ass demolished in that fight despite being a better athlete and its probably one of the craziest come backs in ufc history.

 

[KhosVaziri]

Speaking of changing arguments. Nice job continuing to move the goal posts.

Isn't that what you accused me of?

Hmm.
Good talk bro. I'm out.

yeah just find where I wrote they didnt have winning records. The arguments were about clearing out divisions and they ranged from talking about nfl or nba guys, even washed up ones to d1 college football and basketball guys with a few months to a few years of training.

 

[AndrewGolota48]

Idk the A level athletes that came into the sport late have done pretty well:

Brock won title
Hardy- came into it post NFL career, zero experience, still cracked the UFC and picked up a few wins.
Schaub- failed to make NFL, cracked top 10 UFC
Mitrione- another NFL reject, top 15
Erik Anders- Bama linebacker, had a successful MW career

Brock is the only one with any MMA experience from this list I believe, and he managed to win the fucking title lol.

Jones is probably the best example of an A level athlete joining the sport early (both his brothers professionals), and he’s the fucking GOAT at LHW, maybe all time. He’s literally what everyone means by if some of these guys start mma early, and not their early 20s

There isn't much logic to any of this, what are you using to define A level athlete? Jones did not excel at football or basketball, and for that matter he did not get to the elite level in his own sport of wrestling compared to Brock or DC.

Schaub is somehow used as an NFL player but the reality is he barely got playing time even at the college level, yet he easily beat the far better football players Mitrione and Big Baby (and Mitrione also beat Big Baby with fae less martials arts experience, despite Baby being the much better NFL player).

It would appear from this that being better at football makes you worse at fighting? Roy Nelson was worse at football than Mitrione or Schaub and he steamrolled them.

How about Austen Lane as a recent example? By virtue of being a starting NFL player for a while, he should be a light years better athlete than Jon Jones (or Schaub for that matter) could ever claim. He hasn't exactly made a big splash in MMA.

No doubt there are some great fighters in the NFL/NBA/NHL/soccer etc, because being great at those sports doesn't somehow make you a worse fighter, but I'm not sure there is a huge correlation between abilities in one sport vs the other when you get to the highest levels.

 

[KhosVaziri]

He did not. His first experience with any art was him starting to train in Q3 of 2016 (so he was at this point like 3 years removed from his 14 years of competitive football before he even began to train).

There was hardly anything A-level about that, he was washed up. He even took a break in 2017 from martial arts training because he was trying to make a roster for arena football and Spring league (lol at some arena football hopeful being a "sherdog a-level athlete")

What are you talking about? He had the best season of his life in 2013 and was a pro bowler and 2nd team all Pro and in that offseason he got arrested for beating up his girlfriend. He got released from the Panthers then got signed by the Cowboys and still had a good season but got cut for non performance related reasons.

He could still beat anyone in the ufc right now in a sprint, vertical jump or bench, squat, dead or any type of weight lifting. He's a better athlete than everyone in his division but that's not enough.

 

[KhosVaziri]

There isn't much logic to any of this, what are you using to define A level athlete? Jones did not excel at football or basketball, and for that matter he did not get to the elite level in his own sport of wrestling compared to Brock or DC.

Schaub is somehow used as an NFL player but the reality is he barely got playing time even at the college level, yet he easily beat the far better football players Mitrione and Big Baby (and Mitrione also beat Big Baby with fae less martials arts experience, despite Baby being the much better NFL player).

It would appear from this that being better at football makes you worse at fighting? Roy Nelson was worse at football than Mitrione or Schaub and he steamrolled them.

How about Austen Lane as a recent example? By virtue of being a starting NFL player for a while, he should be a light years better athlete than Jon Jones (or Schaub for that matter) could ever claim. He hasn't exactly made a big splash in MMA.

No doubt there are some great fighters in the NFL/NBA/NHL/soccer etc, because being great at those sports doesn't somehow make you a worse fighter, but I'm not sure there is a huge correlation between abilities in one sport vs the other when you get to the highest levels.

This argument has become a fantasy scenario about guys who are a level athletes doing mma/combat sports at a young age instead of their sport.

this argument is pointless. then bringing up jones and lesnar, 2 guys who were wrestling since they were little kids, is also pointless. Especially because as you pointed out, we have no reason to think Jones is A level and he's not showing up and just 1 punch koing everyone. he's incredibly skilled and had great wrestling and timing with his strikes, defense, etc.

Also, no one said that the few nfl and nba guys and college football or basketball players that showed up to mma didn't do well, they just didnt show up and dominate everyone and win belts. This argument has changed big time as we've seen actual "A level Athletes" show up the sport and get put to sleep. Now its become an impossible scenario that is pointless to debate about. If a freak athletes focused on mma from when they were young, they'd be champs. Ok.

 

[BigDramaShow26]

They weighed in like 5lbs apart.

I have no idea why it’s an American thing tbh, but it absolutely. I genuinely hadn’t even heard the term ‘A-level athlete’ before coming on here. It’s an bizarre fascination you guys have with people primarily from the NFL and NBA.

Neither Volk or Tuivasa were anywhere near elite rugby players, so it again begs the question - what exactly is an A-level athlete? T

Paul cut weight. Anyway doesn't matter....

Greg Hardy clearly doesn't take the sport seriously enough. It requires dedication and respect. Being a great athlete is just part of it....but it definitely helps.