simple judo throw to complement guard jumping for bjj

Discussion in 'Grappling Technique' started by m3, May 2, 2008.

  1. m3

    m3 Orange Belt

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    I wonder if there is a simple to learn judo throw that can be used in bjj competition for guard players like me who like to jump guard?
    I cant jump guard every time since that would become kinda predictible.

    But rather some takedown that doesnt have to require so much energy (like the double-leg) and that can be done if uke is standing in "anti-judo" position with the butt out and going wery low to make a double almost impossible.

    The intended takedown could also be in such a way that the natural way to counter for my opponent by rebalancing would make them vulnerable to the guardjump. For example if I try a foot sweep they may have to step back and to the side with their leg wide, then its easy to jump into guard.

    mabye tomoe nage?
    [​IMG]
    if uke is standing wery low in a bent over position they are easier to throw, if they are standing straight its easy to jump guard. If I fail im still in open guard?
     
  2. Yojimbo

    Yojimbo Brown Belt

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    Tomoe nage is good. It's kinda close to sitting to guard. You can also go to a triangle or armbar off it. As for the "anti-judo" stance, I'd say uchimata is perfect against it. But I'm no judoka, so don't take my word for it.
     
  3. Sohei

    Sohei Its just a flu bro!

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    UM is good for the defensive stance(jigotai).

    TN is good since if you fail you can jst pull guard.
     
  4. Cojofl

    Cojofl Brown Belt

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    I like playing butterfly guard so I find Sumi Gaeshi a useful throw for pulling guard.
     
  5. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    Another good throw is uki-waza, where you use your foot to help the person over instead of just driving off it. It's a throw that can't be used in judo nowadays because of judo scoring (sacrifice throws tend to go to the wrong person unless the referee is sharp :mad:), but works well in BJJ or submission grappling. The nice thing about it, even if it fails it just means the other guy is in your guard ... its like a guard pull and a sweep attempt in one shot - if it works you end up having side mount, it if fails you end up in guard.

    Unfortunately the kuzushi (off-balancing) and timing have to be done properly, you're not going to learn it from a book or youtube. The trick is to do it when your opponent is moving, the timing is close to that of a foot sweep. Once you get it it works well, used to be one of my favorites before the IJF made sacrifice throws too risky (scoring :icon_cry2).
     
  6. wmike9902**

    wmike9902** Purple Belt

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    tomoe nage is good but if you dont get it perfect ur giving the opponent a takedown and maybe even mount.
     
  7. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

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    as a tall guy (6'4") almost everybody plays me in jigotai to ward off the foot sweeps, osoto, or a possible tomoenage.

    when i play tournaments, i usually try to hit a good tomoe or sumi gaeshi first match. people usually cheer, and my opponents take notice. more often than not, they're even more cautious of the tomoe or osoto, and end up almost completely bent over at the waist.

    the best offensive technique for this usually ends up being an armbar. i'll step in with my left foot which will cause them to back up even further. i put my right leg on their left thigh or knee, kick hard, and pull their left shoulder to the ground with my lapel grip while extending their right arm.

    when we hit the ground, they almost always have their left arm on the ground to absorb the impact, belly down, legs almost completely straight. from here, it's just a simple matter of rolling to the right and securing the armbar.

    here's a video of me pulling it in a Judo competition last fall:

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SvElt6u1jU&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3SvElt6u1jU&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

    No, it's not done very well. Oh well. I never said I was good.

    Here's an Aoki video where he does it. A lot: Much, much better than i do.

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8I4bVSP2ReM&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8I4bVSP2ReM&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

    And lastly, here's the first Judo match I ever played. Hooray Tomoe:

    <object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xsl2KxPuIqo&hl=en"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Xsl2KxPuIqo&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
     
  8. Drew Foster

    Drew Foster Silver Belt

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    Get 3 solid throws. You want one dependable forward throw, ne rear throw, and one sacrifice throw. Work on an Osoto for the rear throw, maybe a Tomoe or Uki Waza for a sacrifice, and maybe a Seoi, Harai Goshi, or Uchimata for your forward throw.
     
  9. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

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    i don't recommend ukiwaza for a sacrifice throw. you can use it as a counter (which is more or less yokoguruma, but i digress) but as far as an offensive throw a good player will almost immediately drop to kesa or mune gatame.

    sumi gaeshi is the shit. especially against people that play with their ass sticking out.

    opponent bent over = sumi gaeshi
    opponent upright = tomoenage
    opponent upright and heavier than you = flying armbar
     
  10. georgejjr

    georgejjr Black Belt

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    You modify it so your inner leg hooks their rear leg. At absolute worst you end up in half-guard, most of the time you end up in a variation of butterfly guard, and if you time it right you end up with side mount. This is one of those throws that work better in heavier weight division, because movements are slower and the strength to weight ratio is better.

    You're not going to see it in judo because a good player will make a motion with their foot and get a yuko out of your sacrifice (ie it'll look like ko soto gari or ko uchi gari depending upon which one). It used to be used by newaza specialists in judo back in the days when an ippon was a very hard throw (ie just rolling someone on their back didn't win a fight) and you more or less unlimited time on the ground. The guy who taught it to me was Doug Rogers, silver medalist in the 64 olympics and student of Kimura ... I doubt he'd recommend it for modern judo competition though.
     
  11. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

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    exactly. you've got to drop extremely hard and roll up right away, otherwise it's not gonna work. it's a great counter but you'll almost always get ippon called on you due to the epic suck that is american judo refereeing.

    i like sumi gaeshi and tawara gaeshi as sacrifices for any grappling match because you're more apt to roll up on them into mount. you can do it with uki waza but you've really gotta get that head down and that's pretty hard to do without a gi.

    as far as judo goes, and this is a "do as i say, not as i do" bit of sage wisdom, sacrifices are ill-advised. if they change the rules back to where you have to whomp for an ippon, sure, but this horse shit where you can throw a drop seoi, run along the ground, and get the person for an ippon is absolutely ridiculous.

    whomp = ippon
    no whomp = not ippon

    and while we're on the topic FUCK yukos and kokas...worst idea ever. worst scores ever. really, really bastardizes the competition.

    /rant
     
  12. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    I think a heavy low kosoto could be used often. When doing bjj I remember going for heavy kosotos and if stopped, just drop back and to the side into gaurd. You will already have 1 leg hooked in.

    I was dru...err...exhausted.:icon_lol:
     
  13. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

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    when your opponent is bent over? to pull guard? kosoto? are you high?
     
  14. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    Kosoto while opponent is bent over? Sure. If it fails, you pull gaurd.

    Whats wrong with that?

    Gake.

    Although sometimes they might end up looking close to a taniotoshi.
     
  15. judofarmerbob

    judofarmerbob Banned Banned

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    if you're going to drop that low you're better off doing kataguruma...
     
  16. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    For sure, but I never could do kataguruma and doubt I could just fall back to gaurd if I missed it.

    I shot it as a kosoto, but think it often would end up looking like hiza-guruma or taniotoshi, depending on where I broke his balance. Both would be fine for a guard pull as well but I just looked at like kosoto as thats how I entered.

    Not something I would pull in judo..but bjj? sure. I suppose I might pull it in judo to waste the clock but too much chance of counter score prolly.
     
  17. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    I love it when people take a defensive stance, easier to get a good grip on the back then

    for a scrifice throw/guard pull a Hikomi Gaeshi? I have no experience with guardpullng per se but alas...

    As I wrote it is easier to get a good grip on the back when the have a ass out stance
     
  18. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    Uki Waza is another sacrifice thwo that might end up being a guard pull, I know it has happend for me by accident
     
  19. YeahBee

    YeahBee Samdog Original Nine

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    Now tha name eludes me I am a little Q-mystic-ish now (aka drunk :)

    You have a high grip on his collar or and neck, you pull backwards and block his foot/knee with your foot (that is on the same side as the collar)
     
  20. Q mystic

    Q mystic Silver Belt

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    ashi sumpin?LOL I am too but wouldn't remember anyway. Kinda like Hiza-guruma?
     

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