Opinion sick of religion and this belief in a god.

[Phelly2]

Prayer means different things, so we have to make sure what exactly we are speaking about. There are petition prayers, there are prayers of thanksgiving, there are communion prayers, etc.

If you're just speaking of petition prayers, the bible does show instances where God changes his mind because of prayer. It's no different than a child asking his parents for something, where they hear the kid out, and then do what he asks.

Yea, I'm pretty much just talking about petition prayers.

But there's a difference between a fallible, limited human parent and a perfect, all knowing, all powerful GOD.

If my child asks me for something, he's providing me with information I didn't previously have. It's perfectly OK for me to say, wow, I didn't know you felt that way. Since I now have new information, my conscience dictates that I take a new course of action. It would be a sign of an evil man if I said, I know my child wants X, Y, or Z, and I might give it to him, but first I want to see him squirm. I want to see him beg.

But God already knows everything that you told him. He knew how badly you were going to want it before he even set the plan into motion. And I just can't think of a reason why God wouldn't just make your wishes a part of his plan since he was going to do it anyway.

 

[dontsnitch]

I can't read the whole thread, but I probably have heard the arguments before.

The idea that God would allow his followers to suffer so that others may have free will (and likely be condemned to hell) is about the most cruel and fucked up thing I can imagine. And free will aside, why does God let people suffer from disease, accidents, etc.? Brutal cruelty.

You need to recognize the objection for what it is. There is no sense in pointing to the most evil or painful experience, any pain is enough for the objection to work. The point is that where there is free will there is evil.

A world where I am selfish, is one where there is evil. As is a world where I eat the last cookie, or am rude to you. If you take the argument to it's logical conclusion, you need to completely eliminate free will to have the world you are arguing for.

 

[dontsnitch]

Yea, I'm pretty much just talking about petition prayers.

But there's a difference between a fallible, limited human parent and a perfect, all knowing, all powerful GOD.

If my child asks me for something, he's providing me with information I didn't previously have. It's perfectly OK for me to say, wow, I didn't know you felt that way. Since I now have new information, my conscience dictates that I take a new course of action. It would be a sign of an evil man if I said, I know my child wants X, Y, or Z, and I might give it to him, but first I want to see him squirm. I want to see him beg.

But God already knows everything that you told him. He knew how badly you were going to want it before he even set the plan into motion. And I just can't think of a reason why God wouldn't just make your wishes a part of his plan since he was going to do it anyway.

So you just want all your wishes to come true and then God would be successful at answering prayer. It doesn't work that way, no more than one gives their kids everything they ask for.

It also happens that when one reaches the point that he prays for something, it is also the point where they really long for it, thus, prayer is the symptom of that longing, which is why God answers you. He's not just waiting for empty words, but the heart behind it.

 

[kpt018]

You need to recognize the objection for what it is. There is no sense in pointing to the most evil or painful experience, any pain is enough for the objection to work. The point is that where there is free will there is evil.

A world where I am selfish, is one where there is evil. As is a world where I eat the last cookie, or am rude to you. If you take the argument to it's logical conclusion, you need to completely eliminate free will to have the world you are arguing for.

No, I would argue there is no God and that is why evil can exist (or that this God is cruel).

And you didn't address the other point. Forgetting evil for a second, why would a child live a few years with cancer in great pain and emotional pain to the family only to die of the disease? Seems like only a cruel God would allow that.

 

[dontsnitch]

No, I would argue there is no God and that is why evil can exist (or that this God is cruel).

And you didn't address the other point. Forgetting evil for a second, why would a child live a few years with cancer in great pain and emotional pain to the family only to die of the disease? Seems like only a cruel God would allow that.

The point is not to prove God exists, it is to find out if God could possibly exist given that evil exists.

Cancer is under the same umbrella as evil, you simply can't get around that. Things are imperfect, we deteriorate, we get infected, etc. I can engineer a bacteria and unleash it into the world. You cannot have a world with no evil or suffering or injustice where there is free will.

 

[Phelly2]

So you just want all your wishes to come true and then God would be successful at answering prayer. It doesn't work that way, no more than one gives their kids everything they ask for.

It also happens that when one reaches the point that he prays for something, it is also the point where they really long for it, thus, prayer is the symptom of that longing, which is why God answers you. He's not just waiting for empty words, but the heart behind it.

OK, what you're saying makes sense.

But it still doesn't avoid the fact that God purposely puts us into situations that cause us to suffer.. Whether that's to build character or just for his own amusement, it still seems an awfully inefficient (and somewhat cruel) way of running things.

 

[rshawneecarbon1]

Then you should probably leave earth.

 

[dontsnitch]

OK, what you're saying makes sense.

But it still doesn't avoid the fact that God purposely puts us into situations that cause us to suffer.. Whether that's to build character or just for his own amusement, it still seems an awfully inefficient (and somewhat cruel) way of running things.

I agree that God puts us in situations where we suffer, it's a very biblical principle. I will say that biblically, God primarily disciplines Christians, not those that don't believe in him, but not exclusively so.

I think we need to examine our perspective. Take a child, again, as a comparison. When he asks for candy and you refuse him, and he wails and cries, or when you put him in time-out, and he is in pain, are you always being cruel? It all depends how you look at it

 

[Phelly2]

Then you should probably leave earth.

When I'm ready.

 

[kpt018]

The point is not to prove God exists, it is to find out if God could possibly exist given that evil exists.

Cancer is under the same umbrella as evil, you simply can't get around that. Things are imperfect, we deteriorate, we get infected, etc. I can engineer a bacteria and unleash it into the world. You cannot have a world with no evil or suffering or injustice where there is free will.

That answer doesn't make any sense. Sounds like you're just sticking up for the big guy in the sky. Freewill and disease under the same umbrella? WTF?

 

[dontsnitch]

That answer doesn't make any sense. Sounds like you're just sticking up for the big guy in the sky. Freewill and disease under the same umbrella? WTF?

You're not understanding your own objection. The problem of evil is just that, any evil, any injustice. You think if there was no disease, evil would cease to exist? Many diseases are a result of the corruption that exists, and because of what man has done.

If everything was perfect, and the only evil was me being mean to you, you could still object via the same argument. That's the point, you cannot have free will and a perfect world.

 

[Phelly2]

I agree that God puts us in situations where we suffer, it's a very biblical principle. I will say that biblically, God primarily disciplines Christians, not those that don't believe in him, but not exclusively so.

I think we need to examine our perspective. Take a child, again, as a comparison. When he asks for candy and you refuse him, and he wails and cries, or when you put him in time-out, and he is in pain, are you always being cruel? It all depends how you look at it

Right, but again, we're comparing all powerful God to limited man.

I would never purposefully set my child up to fail, but God seems perfectly willing to do that on a regular basis--the earliest and best example being Adam and Eve.

Anyway, my purpose in this thread was to discuss prayer and I think you did a pretty good job of explaining that to me. So I'm gonna duck outta here. Thanks.

 

[dontsnitch]

Right, but again, we're comparing all powerful God to limited man.

I would never purposefully set my child up to fail, but God seems perfectly willing to do that on a regular basis--the earliest and best example being Adam and Eve.

Anyway, my purpose in this thread was to discuss prayer and I think you did a pretty good job of explaining that to me. So I'm gonna duck outta here. Thanks.

Cheers, dude.

 

[kpt018]

You're not understanding your own objection. The problem of evil is just that, any evil, any injustice. You think if there was no disease, evil would cease to exist? Many diseases are a result of the corruption that exists, and because of what man has done.

If everything was perfect, and the only evil was me being mean to you, you could still object via the same argument. That's the point, you cannot have free will and a perfect world.

You're being silly. Obviously many diseases are not a result of our actions or the actions of our ancestors.

 

[dontsnitch]

You're being silly. Obviously many diseases are not a result of our actions or the actions of our ancestors.

Aside from free will, the other factor reconciling evil with God is life itself. The fact that we deteriorate and die is unjust. Aging is a sort of disease.

To solve these problems, you need to eliminate this entire universe outright and replace it with heaven.

If you're really interested, there are some debates on youtube which highlight both sides, they're pretty informative, it's a huge topic. CS Lewis was an atheist because of this objection, and he eventually reconciled the problem, and went on to write a book about it called The Problem of Pain.

I understand there are objections, but it's not an open and shut case like you want to suggest. It's still a problem, but I don't think any conclusion on the matter is a necessary one.

 

[kpt018]

Aside from free will, the other factor reconciling evil with God is life itself. The fact that we deteriorate and die is unjust. Aging is a sort of disease.

To solve these problems, you need to eliminate this entire universe outright and replace it with heaven.

If you're really interested, there are some debates on youtube which highlight both sides, they're pretty informative, it's a huge topic. CS Lewis was an atheist because of this objection, and he eventually reconciled the problem, and went on to write a book about it called The Problem of Pain.

I understand there are objections, but it's not an open and shut case like you want to suggest. It's still a problem, but I don't think any conclusion on the matter is a necessary one.

Yeah, well, there is the problem for atheists. We can't make these leaps without evidence or at least reason.

And I am not suggestion anything is open and shut. I think that when you take these debates to their logical conclusion you are left with either we cannot know if God exists or at best, it's possible God exists. Given how I am wired and my moral objections with all of the Gods in their respective bibles (they are all cruel, no matter which one you believe in), religion just isn't deserving of my time.

 

[dontsnitch]

Yeah, well, there is the problem for atheists. We can't make these leaps without evidence or at least reason.

And I am not suggestion anything is open and shut. I think that when you take these debates to their logical conclusion you are left with either we cannot know if God exists or at best, it's possible God exists. Given how I am wired and my moral objections with all of the Gods in their respective bibles (they are all cruel, no matter which one you believe in), religion just isn't deserving of my time.

This is not meant to make a case for the existence of God, though. Even if I were to show you point-by-point how evil is reconciled, all I have done is demonstrate that evil is not enough to disprove God, that they can coexist.

Whereas if you are successful, and that's a big if, you would show that God does not exist, because you have shown that evil and God cannot be reconciled, and you have shown that there is evil.

 

[kpt018]

This is not meant to make a case for the existence of God, though. Even if I were to show you point-by-point how evil is reconciled, all I have done is demonstrate that evil is not enough to disprove God, that they can coexist.

Whereas if you are successful, and that's a big if, you would show that God does not exist, because you have shown that evil and God cannot be reconciled, and you have shown that there is evil.

No dispute here. As I've said, the best you can do is prove God may exist.

My objection is a moral one. If God exist and allows unnecessary pain and suffering than I have a major beef. Enough that he is not worth my time.

 

[dontsnitch]

No dispute here. As I've said, the best you can do is prove God may exist.

My objection is a moral one. If God exist and allows unnecessary pain and suffering than I have a major beef. Enough that he is not worth my time.

You can't prove God as a necessary conclusion, although I believe William Lane Craig comes as close as anyone can.

For you, I would suggest looking into the why, and not just superficially, but looking at what credible apologists have said on the subject. I think you'd be surprised at how deep the rabbit hole can go.

 

[Ezekiel 2517]

No dispute here. As I've said, the best you can do is prove God may exist.

My objection is a moral one. If God exist and allows unnecessary pain and suffering than I have a major beef. Enough that he is not worth my time.

God permits evil to exist.
Can good exist without evil?
Back to free will.

Look at all the things we call good across the board: charity, compassion, bravery
Without suffering and without evil none of these things exist.

God gave us this life, and we can suffer and suffer or not, but through Jesus he offers eternal salvation and bliss.

Not sure why you are going to bitch about that. Well, some people do like to whine about shit and stuff.