SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 96 Discussion - Lincoln

[Guestx]

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Here's a quick list of all movies watched by the SMC. Or if you prefer, here's a more detailed examination.


It's @chickenluver's week and there's a conspicuous lack of William Shakespeare. Instead, the Club will delve for the first time into the filmography of none other than Steven Spielberg.

Our Director​

​

Look, this is Steven Spielberg. All the bios I've found are just too damn long to copy and paste, but if you want to read up on him then I like this effort from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Steven-Spielberg

Our Star​

Daniel Day-Lewis: www.imdb.com/name/nm0000358/

Film Overview and YouTube Videos​

Premise: As the War continues to rage, America's president struggles with continuing carnage on the battlefield as he fights with many inside his own cabinet on the decision to emancipate the slaves.

Budget: $65 million
Box Office: $275 million

​

Trivia
(courtesy of IMDB)​

* Describing his experience playing Abraham Lincoln, Daniel Day-Lewis said, "I never, ever felt that depth of love for another human being that I never met. And that's, I think, probably the effect that Lincoln has on most people that take the time to discover him... I wish he had stayed (with me) forever."

* After Liam Neeson dropped out, Steven Spielberg returned to his original choice for the titular role of Abraham Lincoln: Daniel Day-Lewis. Day-Lewis declined because he didn't know if he could play such an iconic role. It was Leonardo DiCaprio who convinced him to take the role after Spielberg told him that Day-Lewis declined. It is unknown how DiCaprio convinced Day-Lewis to take the role.

* Daniel Day-Lewis originally turned down the role of Abraham Lincoln, sending Steven Spielberg this letter: "Dear Steven. It was a real pleasure just to sit and talk with you. I listened very carefully to what you had to say about this compelling history, and I've since read the script and found it - in all the detail of which it describes these monumental events and in the compassionate portraits of all the principle characters - both powerful and moving. I can't account for how at any given moment I feel the need to explore one life as opposed to another. But I do know that I can only do this work if I feel almost as if there's no choice; that a subject coincides inexplicably with a very personal need and a very specific moment in time. In this case, as fascinated as I was by 'Abe,' it was the fascination of a grateful spectator who longed to see a story told rather than that of a participant. That's how I feel now in spite of myself, and though I can't be sure this won't change, I couldn't dream of encouraging you to keep it open on a mere possibility. I do hope this makes sense Steven. I'm glad you're making the film. I wish you the strength for it and I send both my very best wishes and my sincere gratitude to you for having considered me. Daniel."

* During the three and a half months of filming, Steven Spielberg addressed his actors in character: he called Daniel Day-Lewis "Mr. President" (i.e. Abraham Lincoln) and Sally Field "Mrs. Lincoln," or "Molly" (i.e. Mary Todd Lincoln). Additionally, he wore a suit every day on set: "I think I wanted to get into the role, more than anything else, of being part of that experience - because we were recreating a piece of history. And so I didn't want to look like the schlubby, baseball cap wearing 21st century guy; I wanted to be like the cast."

* Steven Spielberg spent twelve years researching the film. He recreated Abraham Lincoln's Executive Mansion office precisely, with the same wallpaper and books Lincoln used. The ticking of Lincoln's watch in the film is the sound of Lincoln's actual pocket watch. Lincoln's watch is housed in the Kentucky Historical Society in Frankfort, Kentucky (not the Lincoln Presidential Library.) It is the watch he carried the day of his assassination.

* In February 2013, numerous reports stated that this movie led to the final, official 50-state ratification of the 13th Amendment, nearly 150 years after it was approved by three-fourths of the states. In November 2012, Dr. Ranjan Batra, a (non-historian) academician at the University of Mississippi, saw Lincoln (2012), then did an Internet search to find out more about the Amendment. He and his colleague Ken Sullivan discovered that although Mississippi voted to ratify the amendment in 1995, a clerical oversight caused that vote to remain officially unacknowledged, since the Mississippi Secretary of State had never sent the vote's result to the U. S. Office of the Federal Register. After Sullivan also saw the movie, both men urged the office of the Mississippi Secretary of State to file that paperwork, which they did on January 30, 2013; on February 7, 2013, the director of the Federal Register confirmed its receipt along with the fact that Mississippi had finally ratified the 13th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

* Asa-Luke Twocrow, who plays Lieutenant Colonel Ely Parker was a member of the film's rigging crew. His resemblance to the Seneca sachem was so uncanny, he was approached by the casting department to play the role. He would change into his costume as Grant's secretary, shoot the scene, and then change back into his crew gear and return to work as a rigger.

* Daniel Day-Lewis is the first of two actors to win an acting Oscar for a movie directed by Steven Spielberg. The other winner is Mark Rylance for Bridge of Spies (2015).

* Sally Field was so determined to play Mary Todd Lincoln, she begged Steven Spielberg for the chance to screen test alongside Daniel Day-Lewis. Spielberg believed she was too old to play the part, but Field was adamant. She recalled, "I'm ten years older than Daniel and twenty years older than Abraham Lincoln's wife was and Steven told me he didn't see me in the role. But I knew I was right for this part and begged him to let me audition for it. He was kind enough to do that and Daniel is such a sweetheart that he flew over from his home in Ireland to screen test with me. I'll love him forever for that."

* Steven Spielberg has explained that during the movie's climactic scene in which the names of House of Representative members are being called to vote on the 13th Amendment, the names of many of the men who voted 'No' --for various reasons--were actually changed in the film so as not to embarrass the living descendants of these men whose reputations might have been stained by their negative vote-casting.

* During the time when he was expected to play the title role, Liam Neeson did an extensive and timely amount of research on Abraham Lincoln. He read over twenty books and visited with the then-existing Lincoln Bicentennial Committee in Washington, D.C. The committee granted Neeson access to Lincoln's history such as personal letters. Neeson also visited Ford's Theater and viewed personal items such as Lincoln's wallet and the Bible used for his inauguration.

* The Ethan Allen story that Lincoln tells (including its vulgar punchline) is an actual story that Abraham Lincoln loved to tell, according to historian Doris Kearns Goodwin. It is unknown if the story is true or not.

* According to Steven Spielberg, it was James Spader's idea to have his character seen as indulging in hand-carving a wooden duck, a preoccupation that Spader's personal research revealed to be one of the major hobbies of Civil War-era America.

* Toward the end of the film, Thaddeus Stevens and his black housekeeper Lydia Hamilton Smith are portrayed as romantic partners. Although there is no officially documented evidence in real life that the two had anything more than an employer/employee relationship, the two were the object of much speculation and rumor during and after their many decades of cohabitation. Some unusual aspects of their living arrangements that contributed to the contemporary rumor that they were romantically involved included the facts that she moved from separate servants' quarters behind the house into Stevens's main house; she frequently served as the hostess for events held at his house; and several of his family members referred to her in terms usually reserved for spouses in their correspondence. Stevens and Smith were also depicted as lovers in the 1915 silent film The Birth of a Nation (1915), although contrary to this film's reasons for inclusion of a romantic relationship between them, that movie's director, D.W. Griffith, used their relationship as racist propaganda and as supposed "proof" of the North's degeneracy.

* Although some viewers were surprised by the usage of the word "fuck" in the movie, the Oxford English Dictionary dates the word back to (at least) the early 1500s, around 350 years before the American Civil War and Abraham Lincoln's presidency. In the movie, the word is used only twice, both times by the vulgar and rough Bilbo character as a way of demonstrating his uncouthness. Viewers who thought they also heard Lincoln using the term to describe "Tammany Hall hucksters" during a monologue actually misheard the then-common word "pettifogging," which means arguing endlessly over small legal details.

* Steven Spielberg was already developing this film when he met with Doris Kearns Goodwin and confided in her that he wanted to make a film about Abraham Lincoln. She told him that she was in the process of writing her book Team of Rivals. Spielberg immediately decided to use it as the basis for the film, and asked to reserve the film rights before the book was finished.

* Abraham Lincoln and his wife Mary have one of their famous fights, in which he threatens to have her committed to a mad house. In the case of this film, the issue they fight over is their son Robert's enlistment in the army. It would be Robert Lincoln who ultimately did commit his mother to an insane asylum, tragically leading to their permanent estrangement.

* There was no dramatic voice vote for the 13th Amendment; it was done by paper ballots.

* Liam Neeson, who was attached to play Abraham Lincoln since the project began development, decided to drop out. According to Neeson, he felt he was too old to play the part after waiting so many years for the project to get the go-ahead. Incidentally, Daniel Day-Lewis is only five years Neeson's junior, though still closest in age to Lincoln, who was 55 and 56 years of age at the time portrayed in the film.

* In a scene wherein Robert Todd Lincoln debates with his father, who is getting ready for a White House event, Tad sits on the edge of the bed looking at glass photograph plates with a candle. One such photograph is of a slave named Gordon, who is also subject of a photograph entitled "The Scourged Back". These photos were taken by McPherson and Oliver out of New Orleans and were widely circulated by abolitionists as some of the earliest forms of propaganda in the fight to pass the 13th amendment to end slavery.

* According to Steven Spielberg during a chat at the University of Southern California's film school, the film came very close to premiering on HBO as opposed to premiering in theaters. Spielberg claimed that the only reason why the film reached theaters was because of his co-ownership in DreamWorks, which was one of the studios behind the film's release.

Members: @shadow_priest_x @europe1 @MusterX @Scott Parker 27 @the muntjac @Caveat @Cubo de Sangre @sickc0d3r @chickenluver @Strange King @FrontNakedChoke @Johnson

 

[Tycho- Taylor's Version]

Oh shit, Lincoln won? Pumped to watch!!

 

[BisexualMMA]

I'm waiting for the Marvel reboot where Lincoln is a black woman.

 

[Strange King]

Well Ill guess ill start. Its not one of my favorites by Daniel but its more of the pace than the movie itself. Daniel always packs a punch with his performances. Idk how abe was when he was alive but daniel creates a character that inspired me.

I love the family dynamic, im not a history buff but i never even really thought about his family before this film and they all played such well characters.

the politics in this film are what make it very boring to me. I know that is a huge part of it, im just not a guy that cares or watches Cspan.

All in all i love the film for what it is

 

[chickenluver]

Day-Lewis is my favorite actor working today, and this is one of my favorite of his roles. I think Spielberg approached this movie with the idea to make everything look and feel, even sound, very authentic (recreating his office perfectly, recording Lincoln's actual pocket watch, etc.) and Day-Lewis seems to have done the same. It was a different task comparing to some of the real people he's played before, because in the cases of Christy Brown and Gerry Conlon there is video and audio recordings of them to study. With Lincoln we have photographs and portraits, but to really know the man one have to read about him.

I'm not well read on Lincoln, I can't say how accurate this portrayal is, aside from some things such as how he liked jokes and stories. But the character Day-Lewis creates I find very compelling. He had an air of great importance, but he wasn't unapproachable. Without the right performance this entire film would have been a complete disaster. He could have easily come across as a caricature. Lincoln is a larger than life figure, so it's appropriate that a larger than life actor would play him. I think he manages to portray Lincoln with reverence and also with humanity. He's a larger than life man but still a man. The scenes with his family are some of my favorites. The scenes with his sons do more than any to humanize Lincoln. Anytime Day-Lewis and Sally Field are on screen together it's fireworks. I really liked Lincoln's story about the parrot with the end times prophecy.

A scene that I think was really well done was how they depicted the passing of the amendment. Everybody watching knows it will pass, so instead of having this big dramatic scene, we see Lincoln with his young son in a room, and they hear the people outside reacting and go to look out the window. Very nice touch by Spielberg there.

I wanted to punch that guy who was shit talking Tommy Lee Jones for compromising in front of the House and the press. What was he stupid or something? lul

Speaking of Tommy Lee, his character had a nice arc. It may have been Lincoln's movie, but the amendment was something Stevens had worked towards for years and years, his entire legal and political career basically.

Some of the cast members that stood out to me were Jared Harris as General Grant, Gloria Reuben as Mary Todd's dressmaker Elizabeth Keckley, Lee Pace as Democrat Fernando Wood, Hal Holbrook as Republican Francis Blair, and Jackie Earle Haley as Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens. Most of them only had a scene or two, but they made a strong impression.

Many actors I recognized but didn't know their names, some I only realized I'd seen before after looking them up. One that really surprised me was finding out that Bruce McGill who played Secretary of War Edwin Stanton

also played D-Day in Animal House

 

[Guestx]

I first saw this film when it was released in 2012--it is quite rare for me to skip a Spielberg movie in the theater, though I confess I didn't make the trip for War Horse or The BFG--and it's one that I've been meaning to rewatch, so I'm glad this opportunity came along.

I think that perhaps what is most interesting about this film, which is based on the book Team of Rivals, is that it doesn't really paint Lincoln as "good ol' Honest Abe." Yes, he's a good man, but he's also shrewd and calculating and not afraid to get his hands dirty. When it came to procuring the votes he needed to pass the 13th Amendment, he was willing to do nearly anything short of outright illegality. His detractors at the time called him a tyrant and a dictator, and the film tells us why: He pushed the presidential powers to their very limits, even taking actions that he wasn't quite sure he had a right to take, as evidenced by the story he tells about the emancipation proclamation.

In short, Lincoln was a complex dude. He took his duty to the country seriously. He was prepared to make personal sacrifices in order to be a good and effective leader of the nation, and he also wasn't afraid to ruffle some feathers along the way. In fact, he ruffled so many that he was killed for it.

The entire cast does an excellent job here. Obviously DDL kills it like always, but that goes without saying. "DDL Kills It" is hardly an interesting headline anymore. He always hits homeruns. What is more remarkable is the strength of the supporting cast. There are too many big names to list, including a few that I didn't recognize the first time around, but they all do fine jobs.

Speaking of which, did you guys realize that this was James Spader?

I totally did not. When I saw his name in the credits I was like, "Who the fuck was James Spader?" and had to look it up. Talk about disappearing into a role. It's one of the best performances I've ever seen from him. Perhaps THE best.

I'd also like to mention of the dialogue. This film has some of the most interesting dialogue that I've ever heard. I didn't live in the late 19th century but it sounds like the writer took great pains to nailing the manner of speech from that period. It's not quite as striking as The Witch in this regard, but it really sounds like someone was trying to be as accurate as possible with the turns of phrase.

Spielberg's output has been a bit uneven in the last decade--perhaps even slightly disappointing, in comparison to his earlier work--but Lincoln is a well-made film. My only complaint is the pacing. It movies a bit slowly and is nearly 2 1/2 hours long, and it's just not the kind of movie that grips you and puts you on the edge of your seat. But it's still an enjoyable and thought-provoking movie that features some excellent performances.

 

[Guestx]

Day-Lewis is my favorite actor working today

What are your feelings about his supposed retirement? And do you think he'll make another film?

Anytime Day-Lewis and Sally Field are on screen together it's fireworks.

I was surprised to learn that Sally Field was 20 years older than Marry Todd Lincoln. Because in nearly all of the pictures I've seen of MTL she looks pretty old.

I mean, look at this bitch. How the hell did ol' Honest Abe end up with her anyway?

A scene that I think was really well done was how they depicted the passing of the amendment. Everybody watching knows it will pass. . .

You know, it's funny, even though logically you're right, everyone watching knows it will pass, there was still some part of my mind--the disbelief suspending part that buys into the world of the film and its characters as something real--that still found it a tense moment.

Lee Pace as Democrat Fernando Wood

When I first saw the movie, I had no idea who Lee Pace was. But since then I've watched him through four seasons of AMC's Halt and Catch Fire, and so when I was watching the movie the other night I was like, "Oh shit, that's Lee Pace!"

For anyone who hasn't seen Halt and Catch Fire BTW, I highly recommend it.

 

[chickenluver]

Yes, he's a good man, but he's also shrewd and calculating and not afraid to get his hands dirty. When it came to procuring the votes he needed to pass the 13th Amendment, he was willing to do nearly anything short of outright illegality.

I like when he sends the note to the House saying as far as he knows there are no Confederate envoys in the city, and there are not likely to be any. The guy was correct when he said it meant nothing and called it a lawyer's dodge.

Speaking of which, did you guys realize that this was James Spader?

I recognized his voice, but yeah, really great performance by him. This character was a Confederate but moved north in 1864. He was actually arrested on suspicion of being a rebel spy, but pardoned by Lincoln.

Agree with you on the dialogue. I think it was due both to the research done by Doris Kearns Goodwin, as well as the talent of Tony Kushner.

 

[Guestx]

I like when he sends the note to the House saying as far as he knows there are no Confederate envoys in the city, and there are not likely to be any. The guy was correct when he said it meant nothing and called it a lawyer's dodge.

He totally played those guys, and the Confederates too. It was actually a vaguely uncomfortable moment for me because I didn't like seeing Abe employ that kind of dishonesty in the exercising of his official duties.

I recognized his voice, but yeah, really great performance by him. This character was a Confederate but moved north in 1864. He was actually arrested on suspicion of being a rebel spy, but pardoned by Lincoln.

No shit. Well that's interesting. I wonder if there was any truth to him being a spy.

 

[Guestx]

Speaking of Spader, gotta love this scene:

 

[chickenluver]

What are your feelings about his supposed retirement? And do you think he'll make another film?

It makes me sad, but I respect his decision and am trying to accept it. I only have a few movies left in my Day-Lewis marathon, so when I've finished it will probably hit me harder.

As for if he will work again. I think not, but I won't say for certain. A lot of people seem to not be taking his retirement declaration seriously at all, because Day-Lewis has often taken multiple years between projects, and there have been rumors in the past that he was retired, especially during the five years in between The Boxer and Gangs of New York. What people seem not to be aware of, or they are ignoring is that he has never publicly said he was going to retire before now. He even said that part of making it a public announcement was that it kind of makes it real so to speak, binds him to his word.

I think the nature of his last role had something to do with it. He basically said as much, that going into Phantom Thread he had no idea it would be his last film. Phantom Thread is about an obsessive craftsmen / artist, one who gets completely lost in his work. It's possible that playing that character made he see something in himself, or his work, that he didn't like, or at the very least made he believe it was time to stop. I can't say much more, you'd have to see the movie and read his interview about retirement, but even then he doesn't give any straight answers.

All that being said, this piece of trivia is very interesting:

* After Liam Neeson dropped out, Steven Spielberg returned to his original choice for the titular role of Abraham Lincoln: Daniel Day-Lewis. Day-Lewis declined because he didn't know if he could play such an iconic role. It was Leonardo DiCaprio who convinced him to take the role after Spielberg told him that Day-Lewis declined. It is unknown how DiCaprio convinced Day-Lewis to take the role.

It was also DiCaprio who convinced Day-Lewis to make Gangs of New York after a five year break. That made more sense to me since DiCaprio is actually in that movie. I guess the two of them must have a good rapport. Anyway, that along with the letter from Day-Lewis to Spielberg declining the role, in which he basically says he can never be sure when or if he's going to change his mind about something, makes me think he might work again, but only if DiCaprio convinces him lmao.

I mean, look at this bitch. How the hell did ol' Honest Abe end up with her anyway?

Well she was rich lul

It's terrible to think after the intense grief she had been suffering over the death of her son that Ape was killed so soon after the end of the war. They had also lost another son in 1850 at age four, and the younger son depicted in the film died six years after the war at age eighteen. Later the remaining son had her institutionalized for a time.

You know, it's funny, even though logically you're right, everyone watching knows it will pass, there was still some part of my mind--the disbelief suspending part that buys into the world of the film and its characters as something real--that still found it a tense moment.

Yeah it was a tense moment for those characters, I could feel that for sure. i think it would have been cheesy to have the guy read the results and have everybody go crazy, that's why I like that the camera was on Lincoln and his son on the moment of the announcement.

When I first saw the movie, I had no idea who Lee Pace was. But since then I've watched him through four seasons of AMC's Halt and Catch Fire, and so when I was watching the movie the other night I was like, "Oh shit, that's Lee Pace!"

I think aside from Lincoln I've only seen him in Guardians of the Galaxy.

No shit. Well that's interesting. I wonder if there was any truth to him being a spy.

It sounds like he was arrested in New York while he was attempting to procure votes for Lincoln and Seward. My guess would be that since it was supposed to be a secret that he was working for Lincoln, his activities raised suspicions, but I doubt he was actually a spy. Also I was mistaken when I said Lincoln pardoned him. One has to be convicted of a crime before they can be pardoned for it. Lincoln simply ordered his release after he had been arrested.

 

[europe1]

I think Lincoln is a difficult movie to say stuff about.

It's obviously very realistic. The geography of the day's political spectrum is faithfully recreated. You see faction, personas, ideals moral compromises. It's the political factory at work. The film is very deeply entrenched in this nitty-gritty approach to political action.


One subject that I haven't seen discussed on here is that of slavery.

Now what do you do with slavery in a movie like this? That is what this whole hoedown is about, ain't it?

It's therefore interesting that Speilberg never actually shows the harships of slavery in this film. It's divorced from the political jostling that dominates this picture. Obviously, it's hard reconciling a scene on the plantations with what's going on in this pictue. But Steven could have done it through a flashback or something -- especially since Lincoln was actually a guy who interviewd and talked to ex-slaves -- so Speilberg did have in his power to place in some sort of "shit was rough, Mister Lincoln" scene where Abe talks with an ex-thrall or something.

Maybe Spielberg didn't feel the need to do that since he had covered ground like that in Amistad? Or maybe he assumed that audiences were so familiar with that subject already?

Instead Spielie has scenes like this. More subtle, alluding scenes. Abraham's speach with these nubians dudes -- positioned very early in the movie -- highlights that emancipation ain't going to mean equality at all. The black hombre points out that society ain't going to accept brothers with rights, firearms or leadership-positions, and that he's most likely career-path post-war is menial servitude jobs. Abe-bro, acknowledges his grievances, but also silently aquieces to the fact that he can't do much about it, stuck in the political world that it is. Character-wise, it establishes early Lin-coln's position towards slavery. He knows that he cannot bring equality, not even something close to it -- due to the political cosmos he exists in -- so he's going to haul the babby-steps that he actually can make in order to bring some improvements, and as we see, he's going to use every piece of skullduggery and subterfuge to do take those baby-steps.

Another interesting character-moment with Lincoln regarding slavery is when his maid, Elizabeth Keckley, asks him what he personally thinks about the race-issue. His answer is rather at arms-lenght. He really doesn't "know" black people -- or slaves for that matter, on a personal level. Thus he cannot motivate his abolitionist stance on a personal level, as she asked for. His convictions is more due to some humanistic ideology, on a virtious but more abstracted plane. Frankly, considering his life and experiences, I thought that a really intelligent thing to say, in that he recognizes the differences between his own personal experiences and his ideological-convictions. Keckley appears a bit put-off by this answer though, reminding him that she's the mother of a fallen soldier in response and all the baggage that comes with that.

how he liked jokes and stories

He's a larger than life man but still a man

Yes, he's a good man, but he's also shrewd and calculating and not afraid to get his hands dirty.

One interesting characterization note about Old' Abe. His penchance for telling stories gives him a sort of folkiness. There's some sort of meandering, paternal quality to them. It gives him a rather airy, kind-old-uncle feel. Yet, despite presenting himself like that to people, he's still a man of unrelenting drive and stone-hard convictions.

There is some sort of masqurading dualism between his character -- outwardly he's folksy and filled with amusing anecdotes, as if purposfully wanting to make people underestimate or feel kindly towards him. But politically he's shrewd as all hell and very ideologically convinced. It's like Daniel Day-Lewis is playing him like a guy whom keeps his dreams and aspirations safely bottled-up but directed through his work with a lazer-sharp focus, which shows in all the deals and compromises he's willing to do.

He had an air of great importance, but he wasn't unapproachable. Without the right performance this entire film would have been a complete disaster. He could have easily come across as a caricature. Lincoln is a larger than life figure, so it's appropriate that a larger than life actor would play him. I think he manages to portray Lincoln with reverence and also with humanity. He's a larger than life man but still a man

I think one filmmaking decision that adds to this aura, is that he's often the shadowy puppet master than the guy actually doing stuff. He has a band of underlings who perform his tasks. Personally, he's often waiting for the results of actions that he has set in motion, but doesn't actually perform himself, which sidelines him from the narrative often. Lincoln is the grandmaster whom everyone does what they do because of.

He's sort of like El Cid in the last chapters of Canter de Mio Cid. By the time he's old El Cid isn't actually doing much personally in the narrative anymore, but people are doing stuff in his name. Which I'm sure is an analogy that everyone can understand.

Chessmaster Lincoln, only watching the game, controlling it, I don't see you guys rating the kind of mate he's contemplating.

* Describing his experience playing Abraham Lincoln, Daniel Day-Lewis said, "I never, ever felt that depth of love for another human being that I never met. And that's, I think, probably the effect that Lincoln has on most people that take the time to discover him... I wish he had stayed (with me) forever."

Jesus if he felt this strongly about the dude he should have starred in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter as well.

* Toward the end of the film, Thaddeus Stevens and his black housekeeper Lydia Hamilton Smith are portrayed as romantic partners. Although there is no officially documented evidence in real life that the two had anything more than an employer/employee relationship, the two were the object of much speculation and rumor during and after their many decades of cohabitation

To put it in other words, the slur lobbied against abolitionist during the time was that they were ******-lovers. So Spielberg made him an actual ******-lover. Only he made it something positive.

Without the right performance this entire film would have been a complete disaster. He could have easily come across as a caricature. Lincoln is a larger than life figure, so it's appropriate that a larger than life actor would play him.

Yeah, getting a "larger than life" persona right is a mighty difficult task. One that I always think of when such characters are discussed is Jeffery Hunter as Jesus in King of Kings, which just floored me, especially since Jeffery Hunter doesn't really come of as a intrepid tespian in his other films or anything.

Speaking of Tommy Lee, his character had a nice arc.

It's interesting that Tommy Lee actually has the usual protagonist arc of growth and change, while Daniel Day-Lewis remains on his aloof plane of existence. But here it's Lewis who is the main character.

I didn't make the trip for War Horse

The best review for that movie I've heard was "I'd rather have watched a movie called Horse War".

Spielberg's output has been a bit uneven in the last decade--perhaps even slightly disappointing, in comparison to his earlier work

I haven't even seen Ready Player One yet and I already know that it's the biggest piece of shit ever created. Better squint your eyes really hard and pretend stuff like that never happened.

It was actually a vaguely uncomfortable moment for me because I didn't like seeing Abe employ that kind of dishonesty in the exercising of his official duties.

Speilberg slaughtering some sacred cows, eh?

I recognized his voice, but yeah, really great performance by him.

No comment about Daniel Day-Lewis quoting Shakespear to Mister Bilbo, eh, Chickenluver? "We have heard the chimes at midnight, Master Shallow"? Tell me now, who said the line best, Day-Lewis or Orson Wells, you have 10 seconds to decide.

 

[Guestx]

It makes me sad, but I respect his decision and am trying to accept it. I only have a few movies left in my Day-Lewis marathon, so when I've finished it will probably hit me harder.

As for if he will work again. I think not, but I won't say for certain. A lot of people seem to not be taking his retirement declaration seriously at all, because Day-Lewis has often taken multiple years between projects, and there have been rumors in the past that he was retired, especially during the five years in between The Boxer and Gangs of New York. What people seem not to be aware of, or they are ignoring is that he has never publicly said he was going to retire before now. He even said that part of making it a public announcement was that it kind of makes it real so to speak, binds him to his word.

I think the nature of his last role had something to do with it. He basically said as much, that going into Phantom Thread he had no idea it would be his last film. Phantom Thread is about an obsessive craftsmen / artist, one who gets completely lost in his work. It's possible that playing that character made he see something in himself, or his work, that he didn't like, or at the very least made he believe it was time to stop. I can't say much more, you'd have to see the movie and read his interview about retirement, but even then he doesn't give any straight answers.

I guess we'll see how it goes. He's 60 years old, so retirement at his age doesn't feel wholly inappropriate. It's not like he's 40 and saying he's retiring.

I really do wish we knew more about his reasoning. Some people have speculated that he's sick, but is just keeping it private. I can't remember if that speculation was based on anything specific.

In any case, I could see him getting five years down the road and missing it and staging a comeback. I wonder what he intends to do in the meantime?

It's terrible to think after the intense grief she had been suffering over the death of her son that Ape was killed so soon after the end of the war. They had also lost another son in 1850 at age four, and the younger son depicted in the film died six years after the war at age eighteen. Later the remaining son had her institutionalized for a time.

Yeah, that's pretty fucking rough. I guess she didn't have it easy. No wonder she went crazy.

Hard not to sympathize with her.

 

[Guestx]

One subject that I haven't seen discussed on here is that of slavery.

Now what do you do with slavery in a movie like this? That is what this whole hoedown is about, ain't it?

Maybe Spielberg didn't feel the need to do that since he had covered ground like that in Amistad? Or maybe he assumed that audiences were so familiar with that subject already?

I think you nailed it with "maybe he assumed that audiences were so familiar with that subject already." Slavery has already been done and done and done. How many times do we need to see a white guy whipping a black guy to know that slavery was fucked up?

I think that Spielberg made the right choice here to keep it tightly focused on the politics.

The point about slavery is made well enough through the plates with the slave pictures on them and the comment the one girl makes to Lincoln's son about how she was beaten when she was a slave.

Another interesting character-moment with Lincoln regarding slavery is when his maid, Elizabeth Keckley, asks him what he personally thinks about the race-issue. His answer is rather at arms-lenght. He really doesn't "know" black people -- or slaves for that matter, on a personal level. Thus he cannot motivate his abolitionist stance on a personal level, as she asked for. His convictions is more due to some humanistic ideology, on a virtious but more abstracted plane. Frankly, considering his life and experiences, I thought that a really intelligent thing to say, in that he recognizes the differences between his own personal experiences and his ideological-convictions. Keckley appears a bit put-off by this answer though, reminding him that she's the mother of a fallen soldier in response and all the baggage that comes with that.

The interesting thing is that, at least in the earlier stages of his political career, Lincoln was against slavery but on the other hand he didn't think that the races all coming together as one was feasible or even desirable. Here's one quote:

I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

I am guessing that "Judge Douglas" is Frederick Douglass, who Lincoln befriended.

That is not even the most incendiary of his quotes, but it shows that there was this whole side of Abraham Lincoln that is almost never talked about or reported on. My understanding was that Lincoln, at least at one time, thought the best solution was for blacks in America to go back to Africa. Though to be accurate, I think that Lincoln changed his rhetoric later on in life, so there was something of an evolution of his perspective.

There is some sort of masqurading dualism between his character -- outwardly he's folksy and filled with amusing anecdotes, as if purposfully wanting to make people underestimate or feel kindly towards him. But politically he's shrewd as all hell and very ideologically convinced. It's like Daniel Day-Lewis is playing him like a guy whom keeps his dreams and aspirations safely bottled-up but directed through his work with a lazer-sharp focus, which shows in all the deals and compromises he's willing to do.

His character is sly as a fox, no doubt.

Jesus if he felt this strongly about the dude he should have starred in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter as well.

It's interesting that Tommy Lee actually has the usual protagonist arc of growth and change

What growth and change are you referring to? Just because he agreed to change his wording that one scene to get the amendment passed?

He seemed to pretty much be the same character to me from start to finish.

The best review for that movie I've heard was "I'd rather have watched a movie called Horse War".

I finally did get around to it, several years later. It's not a bad movie, but not a great one either.

I'd say if you like stories set in WWI then it's worth a watch.

I haven't even seen Ready Player One yet and I already know that it's the biggest piece of shit ever created. Better squint your eyes really hard and pretend stuff like that never happened.

I am concerned by all the CGI in the trailer but it's still one of my most anticipated movies of the year.

I think its success will depend largely on how much of the film takes place in the real world. It needs to be mostly real world, not mostly Oasis.

 

[chickenluver]

Obviously, it's hard reconciling a scene on the plantations with what's going on in this pictue. But Steven could have done it through a flashback or something

I guess it was part of the choice to focus on those four months. I think it worked. As you say a scene on a plantation wouldn't really fit with the rest of the movie. I liked that the past was alluded to with dialogue rather than directly shown in flashback.

That scene plus those photographs of slaves that Tad Lincoln obsessed over.

I had forgotten about that brief battle scene at the start. Nothing like the beginning of Saving Private Ryan of course, but an effective way to start the movie by showing the brutality of the war. And more than being just a brutal fight, it was specifically a scene of black soldiers taking no prisoners in retaliation for the Confederates having done the same previously, hinting at the deeply personal nature of the war for some folks.

Elizabeth Keckley

There was a moment with her that felt kind of odd to me. So Robert Lincoln was telling Abe how he wasn't sure he wanted to be a lawyer, while Tad is looking at the slave photos. Tad asks the valet, William Slade, if he got beat as a slave. He says something like I was born free, I never got beat by anyone that I didn't beat back. Then Ms. Keckley enters the room, and Mr. Slade says she was born a slave, why don't you ask her if she got beat. I believe Ms. Keckley answers that she was beat with those steel rods used to stoke fireplaces when she was younger than Tad.

The odd thing to me was that Mr. Slade would so casually suggest to ask Ms. Keckley about abuse she suffered as a slave. It could have been a very traumatic memory for her, one that she didn't want to bring up just to answer a child's curiosity while she's trying to do her job. It seems like Mr. Slade would be more empathetic, not only because he's black, any other member of the household saying the same thing would have struck me as odd. It almost seemed like he lacked empathy because he had never been a slave. Perhaps Mr. Slade knew she had a story about being beaten, but that she wouldn't mind briefly telling Tad about it, especially since Tad was sympathetic to the issue. I don't know though, she seemed a little uncomfortable with the question, and gave her answer very quickly, although this could have been because she was in a hurry to do her job.

One interesting characterization note about Old' Abe. His penchance for telling stories gives him a sort of folkiness. There's some sort of meandering, paternal quality to them. It gives him a rather airy, kind-old-uncle feel.

Yeah like when he starts to tell his Ethan Allen story and his secretary of war is like oh gawd you're about to tell another story! I can't take this, I have to get out of here!

Jesus if he felt this strongly about the dude he should have starred in Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter as well.

haha is that movie any good?

To put it in other words, the slur lobbied against abolitionist during the time was that they were ******-lovers. So Spielberg made him an actual ******-lover. Only he made it something positive.

These things make it sound to me like they were romantically involved, especially that last point:

"Some unusual aspects of their living arrangements that contributed to the contemporary rumor that they were romantically involved included the facts that she moved from separate servants' quarters behind the house into Stevens's main house; she frequently served as the hostess for events held at his house; and several of his family members referred to her in terms usually reserved for spouses in their correspondence"

I also wondered if Spielberg included that because The Birth of a Nation did the same thing, but presented it as a negative.

One that I always think of when such characters are discussed is Jeffery Hunter as Jesus in King of Kings, which just floored me, especially since Jeffery Hunter doesn't really come of as a intrepid tespian in his other films or anything.

The kid from The Searchers as Jesus?

The best review for that movie I've heard was "I'd rather have watched a movie called Horse War".

hahaha Horse War sounds like an awesome movie. Are they duck sized horses though?

I haven't even seen Ready Player One yet and I already know that it's the biggest piece of shit ever created. Better squint your eyes really hard and pretend stuff like that never happened.

Geez lul

I read some passages from the book that sounded pretty bad. Not sure what to think about the movie. I think it could be alright, but it's going to flop at the box office.

No comment about Daniel Day-Lewis quoting Shakespear to Mister Bilbo, eh, Chickenluver? "We have heard the chimes at midnight, Master Shallow"? Tell me now, who said the line best, Day-Lewis or Orson Wells, you have 10 seconds to decide.

haha well Welles said it twice in one movie so he wins by default. That was a nice touch since supposedly during the 19th century in the US it was very common for people from all social classes to quote Shakespeare in normal life. Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote that aliens probably call the Earth "Shakespeare." Rather appropriate quotation too, since they're were doing shady work, sneaking around at night time etc.

Abe also said some funny stuff to his cabinet, calling his secretary of war the god of war or lord of war, and talking about Poseidon.

 

[europe1]

The interesting thing is that, at least in the earlier stages of his political career, Lincoln was against slavery but on the other hand he didn't think that the races all coming together as one was feasible or even desirable. Here's one quote:

Boy I had to read so much about Lincoln personal views on slavery during an Source-Criticism History Course I took. So many arguments and counter-arguments. I've forgotten all of it now though. It's very difficult to tell since much of those statements were political rethoric, and as the movie shows, much of that is just political jostling.

My understanding was that Lincoln, at least at one time, thought the best solution was for blacks in America to go back to Africa

A yes his Malcom X-phase so to say.

Just because he agreed to change his wording that one scene to get the amendment passed?

He agrees to lie, to publicly state and support something that he loaths. Previously he was the Marcus Porcius Cato of the Congress, utterly unwavering in his convictions and completely forthright and earnest in his dedication to them. His growth in the film changes that, he gives himself to compromise, he starts to play the game, saying one thing and supporting another. All under Lincoln's influence.

Now wait while I smugly smirk at myself for bringing Cato the Younger into this conversation.

but it's still one of my most anticipated movies of the year.

To restate what I said in Dragonlord's thread, I basically consider it Twilight for Boys.

The odd thing to me was that Mr. Slade would so casually suggest to ask Ms. Keckley about abuse she suffered as a slave. It could have been a very traumatic memory for her, one that she didn't want to bring up just to answer a child's curiosity while she's trying to do her job.

Yeah, I too was struck by the tactlessness of that occasion.

haha is that movie any good?

The kid from The Searchers as Jesus?

I know, right!? I was freaking floored as well. He really isn't a good actor... at least from what I've seen. But he was absolutely amazing as Jesus. Made Bergman-trained Max Von Sydow look like an amature in comparison.

hahaha Horse War sounds like an awesome movie. Are they duck sized horses though?

I don't know man. The history of cinema ain't excactly stacked with examples of great movies about armies of abnormally-sized animals.

I read some passages from the book that sounded pretty bad

Oh shit I almost killed myself on the spot reading some of that crap.

"rockin' like Dokken" is not a line that should be allowed to exist.

There was one sentance about dropping Monty Python references that physically made me grimace and feel unwell. It was so fucking mind-numbingly idiotic that I now support the death pendalty for authors that are this eye-gougingly bad. I so want to punch the guy right now. Thank God my google-fu makes me unable to find that particular line at this very juncture.

That was a nice touch since supposedly during the 19th century in the US it was very common for people from all social classes to quote Shakespeare in normal life

Hahaha. Yeah that's right. It sort of fascinates me that in historical cultures one work pretty much utterly dominates the cultural reference-sphere. In the internet-age we make meme's out of every piece of pop culture. Back then, it was often just one work. I've read some Medieval historical chronicles that were so jam-packed with references or allusions to the Bible that the footnotes explaning them took up like a third of the papper on every page.

 

[the muntjac]

I’m late on this, and going to have to keep it short. This movie polarizes me. The framing, the cinematography, the acting, the set dresing, the costumes, and everything else on a technical level is exceptional. However, for some reason, I don’t really get gripped by this one. The dialogue is at times witty and moving, and other times corny and too expository.

Lincoln is portrayed as a charming and well respected fellow, yet below that charm is a man who’s not afraid to stretch the powers of his presidential position to achieve what he desires. He stays true to his convictions, never wavering. There’s a lyric from the Black Sabbath song “I” that goes, “I’ll smash your face in, but with a smile.” It’s a metal variation on the old saying, “Kill them with kindness,” which is exactly what Lincoln does. He shows mercy on his foes, but before he does, he makes sure to let them know who’s boss all through a gentle demeanor.

So yes, I want to like this movie more than I do, but I guess a two and a half hour political drama isn’t all that thrilling to me despite how well this movie is crafted. There are many other Spielberg films I’d put ahead of this. Admittedly, I wasn’t too eager to rewatch this one, but it’s nowhere close to being a lousy movie.

 

[Guestx]

So yes, I want to like this movie more than I do, but I guess a two and a half hour political drama isn’t all that thrilling to me despite how well this movie is crafted.

Out of curiosity, are there any political dramas that you regard highly?

There are many other Spielberg films I’d put ahead of this.

Yeah, especially, from earlier in his career. Though I think it just might be his best movie from the last decade. I maybe enjoyed Bridge of Spies more, but Lincoln feels like a more substantial film.

 

[the muntjac]

Out of curiosity, are there any political dramas that you regard highly?

To be honest, I can’t even think of any examples because I don’t really watch that many, so I don’t think I can answer this.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

As expected, this bored me (and the wife) to tears. Had to tap out after an hour. Only other impression is that Abe was a real dick. Fuck DDL movies. Dude should strangle his agent.