SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 35 Discussion - The Proposition

[europe1]

From everything I've read and seen, basically ALL prison circumstances were incredibly harsh up until like 70 or so years ago.

For commoners at least. Nobels or high-ranking folks could in many circumstances have very comfortable quaters much better than in modern times.

Like... in the Middle Eastern front during WW 1. Charles Townsend was a general for the British Army whose forces was defeated and captured by the Ottomans. Charles and his retinue was given a luxury house-arrest in Istanbul (even had his own private yatch) while his soldiers were marched off to prison-camps where most died from overwork or starvation. Townsend would still go on to praise the genorosity of the Ottoman leadership and negotiated on their behalf in the ending parts of the war... not giving a shit about all the troops that died under him.

But yeah... it was only fairly recently that the idea about prisons went from punishment towards reabilitations. People mostly didn't care about what was going on in prisons. Convicts where throughly demonized -- like in this film, where those children throw rocks at the prison-wagon that delivers the Burns brothers to the jail.

 

[MusterX]

I think this movie subverted expectations on a number of levels. But personally, I loved the ending and thought it was very impactful.

What was interesting was that the first few minutes of the movie set up Ray Winstone as this ruthless, cruel man, or at least that was the impression that I got. And then the rest of the movie walks that back and shows that, no, he's actually not that at all. In fact, he's one of the few characters in the story who shows any compassion or humanity.

So at the end, when he's about to be killed and Emily Watson is about to get raped, I was like, "No, not like this." After all, if anyone deserved their comeuppance it was that sniveling fuck in the bowler hat, not the Captain and his wife.

When I realized that Guy Pearce wasn't initially in that last scene I was pretty sure I knew what was about to happen, and thankfully the movie did not disappoint. If the film had ended with the rape and murder of these relatively innocent characters then it would've just been too nihilistic for me.

Life is that way though. Horrible shit happens somewhere on a daily basis. Murder and rape is humanities go to evil in many cases. Sometimes the biggest impact a film can make on you is when things don't turn out the way you want and in fact turn out real shitty. I don't know how much it would have changed this film but its something to think about. I think that is one reason why a series like Game of Thrones has been wildly successful. There are no happy endings in Game of thrones.

 

[Guestx]

Life is that way though. Horrible shit happens somewhere on a daily basis. Murder and rape is humanities go to evil in many cases. Sometimes the biggest impact a film can make on you is when things don't turn out the way you want and in fact turn out real shitty. I don't know how much it would have changed this film but its something to think about. I think that is one reason why a series like Game of Thrones has been wildly successful. There are no happy endings in Game of thrones.

As I've mentioned before, I generally turn to films for escapism. I watch movies to get away from the horrors of real life, not revel in them all the more.

As for GoT, there definitely have been many unexpected deaths, but with Jon Snow I think the story may be marching toward an ending that ultimately can be considered a happy one.

 

[Coolthulu]

My word, what a beautiful beast.

I am not the biggest fan of the Western genre, but this film has so much to offer it is hard to ignore it. It is a brutal story of redemption, a startling insight in the violent history of Australia, an exploration of how far the bonds of family go and it touches upon the complexity of morality. All this is wrapped in a absurdly fabulous film that looks absolutely stunning. It also shows why Guy Pearce should get better roles. The story is told with a poetic depth that really surprised me and made the occasional brutal violence all the more striking.

Cave's screenplay is also as intelligent and powerful as you're likely to get from a western. Creating an almost mythical tone with a constant sense of foreboding, The Proposition's magic lies within here. The dialogue is authentic, gritty and stripped-down, and leaves no room for unwanted filler. Everything here is needed, and what really stands out is the lack of beating around the bush; the central premise is completely constructed in 8 or so minutes and the plot rockets off, something few films can achieve without being a complete mess.

The supporting roles are what really make this the incendiary movie it is. Danny Huston is phenomenal as the soft-voiced psychopath, Arthur Burns, who's looks and Irish lilt contrast and compliment each other perfectly, and John Hurt is having a whole lot of fun in his two scenes as the fantastically-named Jellon Lamb. And despite all of this scene-stealing, the real attention-grabber is Tom Budge as a slimy, utterly evil henchman who has a penchant for singing old Irish ballads and decapitating people, any which way he can.

Truly an amazing film.

 

[Andersons Foot]

As I've mentioned before, I generally turn to films for escapism. I watch movies to get away from the horrors of real life, not revel in them all the more.

Same for me.

I liked your Of Mice and Men comparison to Charlie/Arthur, I didn't think of that.

 

[Zer]

I really wasn't keen on this film back when I saw it. Nice scenery and setting, with some memorable visual touches. Overall very dull though. Huston stands out in his role and Hurt is fun, but I thought Pearce and Winstone were both wasted on this. Winstone's character in particular had more potential and surrounding themes but the performance never took off.

It needed a bit more panache I felt. I get it's trying to be gritty, but the contrast between Winstone's Capt. Stanley and the harsh Aussie outback was the most interesting thing going on. Shit needed a hammier performance? I guess like a Fitzcarraldo type thing, with Winstone waging war on nature itself and shit

It felt like a spin on Blood Meridian, and I guess Hillcoat is a confirmed Cormac McCarthy mark considering he did The Road as well. I had the same problems with The Road as I did with The Proposition. I'd go in to the similarities with Blood Meridian but I barely understood that freaking book

 

[Peteyandjia]

I really wasn't keen on this film back when I saw it. Nice scenery and setting, with some memorable visual touches. Overall very dull though. Huston stands out in his role and Hurt is fun, but I thought Pearce and Winstone were both wasted on this. Winstone's character in particular had more potential and surrounding themes but the performance never took off.

It felt like a spin on Blood Meridian, and I guess Hillcoat is a confirmed Cormac McCarthy mark considering he did The Road as well. I had the same problems with The Road as I did with The Proposition. I'd go in to the similarities with Blood Meridian but I barely understood that freaking book

Mostly agree with this. I remember being soooo goddamn excited to see The Proposition, huge Nick Cave fan. I like Hillcoat's movies, and their other collaboration Ghosts Of The Civil Dead. And of course Pearce, Winstone. Saw a preview screening in a fancy theater. Was bored to tears.

Later made up for it with Lawless though, which I absolutely love. Also written by Cave, directed by Hillcoat.

Disagree on The Road though. I really was industrial-strength glued to that one

 

[Guestx]

My word, what a beautiful beast.

I am not the biggest fan of the Western genre, but this film has so much to offer it is hard to ignore it. It is a brutal story of redemption, a startling insight in the violent history of Australia, an exploration of how far the bonds of family go and it touches upon the complexity of morality. All this is wrapped in a absurdly fabulous film that looks absolutely stunning. It also shows why Guy Pearce should get better roles. The story is told with a poetic depth that really surprised me and made the occasional brutal violence all the more striking.

Cave's screenplay is also as intelligent and powerful as you're likely to get from a western. Creating an almost mythical tone with a constant sense of foreboding, The Proposition's magic lies within here. The dialogue is authentic, gritty and stripped-down, and leaves no room for unwanted filler. Everything here is needed, and what really stands out is the lack of beating around the bush; the central premise is completely constructed in 8 or so minutes and the plot rockets off, something few films can achieve without being a complete mess.

The supporting roles are what really make this the incendiary movie it is. Danny Huston is phenomenal as the soft-voiced psychopath, Arthur Burns, who's looks and Irish lilt contrast and compliment each other perfectly, and John Hurt is having a whole lot of fun in his two scenes as the fantastically-named Jellon Lamb. And despite all of this scene-stealing, the real attention-grabber is Tom Budge as a slimy, utterly evil henchman who has a penchant for singing old Irish ballads and decapitating people, any which way he can.

Truly an amazing film.

I think that's your most thorough write up yet.

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

Sorry guys, I've been really busy and sick lately.

I'll try and watch this today, post my thoughts, and join in on the discussion... if not today then probably Sunday. (will be too tired tomorrow after staying up all night to watch Rizin again)

Merry be-lated Christmas to you all as well.

 

[europe1]

One thing I thought about was the sunrise scene. It must have been a bitch to film considering the short timespan they had to work with. They probably had to shoot it over several days too just to get the size right and all.

Was pretty though.

It needed a bit more panache I felt.

Yeah I think some stronger narrative trust could have improved it.

And lol at you posting more as a non-member than as a member.

 

[Coolthulu]

I think that's your most thorough write up yet.

 

[Guestx]

And lol at you posting more as a non-member than as a member.

LOL, I noticed that too.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Now that my second job is out of the way for a week or so, I plan on watching this tonight and writing about it probably in the morning. Got through Ran today at least.

 

[Guestx]

Now that my second job is out of the way for a week or so, I plan on watching this tonight and writing about it probably in the morning. Got through Ran today at least.

You're so close to being 100% caught up. Push!

 

[BeardotheWeirdo]

Alright, The Proposition...

The movie starts with a bunch of old black and white music, accompanied by a childrens song... I got the impression that the pictures represented the illusion of civilization. The people were all dressed up, they looked civilized, but were they or was it just an illusion?

The first thing that struck me was the title screen. It was just a black background with The Proposition written in a very plain white font, and underlined. Given the color and font choice I don't think they underlined the title for aesthetic reasons. So the underline was meant to add emphasis to the title. This is a movie about a proposition... but it wasn't really, the proposition was a bit of a no-brainer. Why save a rapist, murderer asshole over someone that's kind and pure? In the end Guy decided that he's in control of his own life, so he'll be the ones to make the propositions...

Literally right from the very start of the movie all lines are blurred. If Ray Winstone is the good guy, then why did he just shoot up their place, killing a bunch of innocent people in the process? Then he illegally threatened to kill two innocent brothers if they didn't kill their guilty brother... I wasn't even sure if Arthur was a criminal, like they said he was. The mystery kept me intrigued though. I much prefer movies like this where there aren't necessarily good guys and bad guys, just different people with different points of view.

The two brothers abandoned Arthur after the incident at the Hopkins farm, so to blame his brothers is... irresponsible. They were guilty by association.. by that same token wasn't everyone guilty, since both sides committed their atrocities. They tried to lash an innocent man to death for example. Back then the jails were mostly filled with political prisoners, and poverty-stricken people who broke the law while trying to survive (stealing, trespassing ) The law wasn't and still isn't necessarily the good guys.

That opening shoot-out scene was great. I liked how it ended with everybody completely still, who was alive and who was dead?

I liked the use of the racist old man, laughing at the idea of evolution. That was a nice little jab at those who hold out-dated ideals

As I've mentioned before, I'm all about the story. The actors can be terrible as long as the story is good... But this is one of those movies that makes me challenge that idea. The story itself was OK, I mean for a western it was fairly advanced, but it was still a very loose story. What made it all work was the acting, sets, costumes, dialogue, mood, and the gritty realness of it all. More than anything it was a study on a crazy period of time, and the people that lived during that time period. For example the way the aboriginals described arthur as half-man, half-beast it indicative of the way stone-age people thought back then, and to a lesser extent still do today.

I liked the music a lot, Warren Ellis wrote all the violin parts, and I'm a big fan of his, he's in a band called "Dirty Three".

My complaints were the same as the rest of you, it was a little slow.

Now I'm going to watch this weeks movie.

 

[JayPettryMMA]

Ok, let's do it. Got published a few times this week, so it's been busy, and now it's time to talk about a real tough and gritty western I haven't seen in a while. I had almost forgotten how solid it was. It was dirty, and very hobbesian - life back then was nasty, brutish and short. Ray Winstone's line early on in the movie before locking up Good Brother stuck with me: "I will civilize this land." Goooood luck with that.

I want to touch on the cinematography before anything else - every scene seemed to matter. Whether it be the colors they used to differentiate the characters, the bleak landscape, the long lingering shots on something like a pile of empty bottles surrounded by a broken building and dust everywhere, it set things up brilliantly. Some of it may have been natural, like the wind blowing or the flies circling, but it was all just so raw and real that it added to every scene.

The characters generally seemed to have color coding as the film went on - Captain wore white and dark colors showing that he dabbles in both sides, Captain's wife was almost always in white or light blues/pinks because she was innocent and pure (besides her clothes that were like she was in mourning), Guy Pearce was tan or grey or other drab colors showing that he was middle of the road (despite being a horrible murderer, still the protagonist), Good Brother was also in whites even including the bandage on his nose, Bad Brother all in black or dark colors, and so on. I digress a little, but this story definitely presents a "protagonist" classification instead of a hero or good guy naming.

What a great way to start the film, though, in a crazy and chaotic shootout. We don't know who is who, but we do know that one side is losing pretty significantly. We don't know what the people in the house were, and it was all fascinating. After the bullets stopped flying, everything was quiet. It was deathly quiet, and for all we knew, everyone in the house was dead. No big leadup, no noon sun or other dramatic moment, and we just catch the characters halfway through the action. It was great.

The pacing wasn't always up to that mark, and it wasn't riddled with gunfights or shootouts and often the scenes were actually quite slow. I fell more in line with "deliberate pacing" than that it was drab/slow. The scenes with Faramir with a moustache, for example, he had a very certain cadence in his voice. He preferred long and agonizing silences to let the people slowly digest what he was saying, and it gave us a real villainous persona to him despite him actually being on the (aggressive) side of law and order.

The music helped the pacing, which was filled with long shots like watching people ride away, with the violin providing an excellent ambiance to what was going on. They were mostly slower tracks, which made for an almost haunting and uncomfortable sound. It added to tension, for sure.

Throughout the film, a whisper drifted in and out, and immediately my mind went to David Lynch's Dune. Even though it wasn't narration or telling anything in particular, the tone and volume of the whisper immediately brought me there. It just stuck out to me. I liked it. And no, I don't want to talk any more about Dune right now.

I really noticed something that SPX had stated in the first post - John Hurt and Ray Winstone don't fire a shot the whole film, despite being two of the less "evil" characters. Granted, the lines begin to blur right off the bat, and that's intriguing. We aren't presented with a hero or a villain, and maybe cops and robbers we do have but the robbers were wanted for the brutal rape and killing of a family among other terrible things. It's inherent in my movie watching that I try to identify the moral placement of the characters, and I enjoyed the grey areas. Sure, Captain was an officer of the law, and he tried to protect Good Brother from Faramir with a moustache from getting whipped half to death, but he also let a brutal and violent criminal free to kill his brother in order to save his other brother.

Could we talk for a second about how that aborigine's head exploded? You know the one - the one that nailed Guy Pearce with the spear. That was one of the best head exploding scenes I've seen in I can't remember how long. It was even better than Scanners, The Running Man, Robocop, or some of the others I've seen. It looked so real, and was so fast that you almost couldn't tell it was a fake head exploding. I was so impressed.

That draws me to my next and final point/question - this movie was violent. Super violent. Bloody, gory, raw and visceral. Did you think that added to the effect, to contribute to the "realness" that this movie was trying to bring present, or did it take away from it?

I don't want to reuse words to describe this film, but it really stuck out to me as a top-tier post-2000 western. Yeah, we can all think of "better" ones, but that's not the point. Every movie doesn't have to be the best of its kind. I wouldn't say that The Proposition is underrated, because those that have seen it generally like it a lot or more, but it certainly flew under the radar. It's kind of like LA Confidential, which was on the list as well, in that it's rated exactly what it should be (9/10), but it's not been seen by nearly enough people.

8.5/10.

 

[europe1]

Throughout the film, a whisper drifted in and out, and immediately my mind went to David Lynch's Dune.

And no, I don't want to talk any more about Dune right now.

You know the one - the one that nailed Guy Pearce the spear. That was one of the best head exploding scenes I've seen in I can't remember how long. It was even better than Scanners

 

[chickenluver]

As for GoT, there definitely have been many unexpected deaths, but with Jon Snow I think the story may be marching toward an ending that ultimately can be considered a happy one.

Obligatory

edit: seriously though I actually sort of agree. I think there will be lots of death and devastation, but in the end we'll be left with hope for the future.

 

[chickenluver]

I really liked this. It's probably my favorite film we've discussed so far excluding Barry Lyndon and Ran, which were of course my own picks. Maybe I didn't like it as much as Shane, but it's close (sorry europe)

I'm a but surprised almost everyone said the pacing was slow. I think only jeicex specially called it deliberate pacing rather than slow. I was thoroughly captivated the whole time and didn't think there was a wasted moment, but it's fairly often that I think a movie has good pacing and the common opinion is that it was slow. I'm starting to think I might favor more meditatively paced films.

The film is stylish and unpredictable, the acting is uniformly excellent, the setting and cinematography is beautiful, the story is compelling. This movie only making $5 million worldwide saddens me.

Faramir with a moustache

I knew I recognized this guy and was trying to place him in all of his scenes. I didn't figure it out without looking at the wiki. I kept thinking he was David Thewlis for some reason.

That draws me to my next and final point/question - this movie was violent. Super violent. Bloody, gory, raw and visceral. Did you think that added to the effect, to contribute to the "realness" that this movie was trying to bring present, or did it take away from it?

For me I would say it did. It was mostly fast, brutal and not really that pervasive I guess? There wasn't violent scene after violent scene, usually we got some calm moments between the fast, violent scenes. There was little lingering on gore sights. Not over the top, etc. The makeup and effects was also so well done this contributed to the seeming authenticity of it.