SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 13 Discussion - American Pop

Since the Belinsky's where of Russian extraction, I though Tolstoy lenght was appropriate!:D

Speaking of that, hi Mr. Dostoevsky!:p

<36>



Did he hand that prostitute a bill to look cool or out of communal comradery?

I don't remember that part, my analysis on the 4th character was pretty slim, I was getting tired. Maybe he was a pimp on the side?

In that situation, it wasn't just a book. It wasn't just their bodies the Russians where trying to wipe out. It was their culture. Their identity. Cultural artifacts take on an vital importance in times of genocide, becuse cultural artifacts inform us of who we are. Seeing one's identity exterminated can be as traumatic as one's body. Dying to perserve that isn't just a book, it's a culture.

Fair enough, but he didn't preserve anything, he just martyred himself.

Ochh... I hope Shadow_priest didn't take that to hard.:p

Nine times out of ten, I don't read the OP until after I make my review. I've told him that before. I go back and read them afterwards.

Nahh. I don't agree with that. Look at the comradery they develop. Like when he visits him in the hosptial. The guy is a hardass that doesn't like showing softness but he does have feelings for the boy.

He may have feelings but if he almost never shows them and does little for the boy then does that really matter? He didn't even teach the kid to read and write, even when the kid wanted to learn.

We shall sparr over this once you've read my post.:p

What you said about their relationship may be true, but why was he so excited as soon as he arrived in Kansas? Why did he abandon the people he was with? Why was he going off about corn and corny lifes? Maybe he wasn't looking to settle down, the movie jumps so it's hard to know how long he was in Kansas for even. I was confused about why he was so excited about Kansas... Was his goal really just to go to Kansas to bang a hot blond and then leave?

Didn't he say that he enlisted voluntarily?

If he did I missed it, but I someone else mentioned that too I thought, so you're probably right. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that someone in his shows would've had very little options when it came to earning a living, unless he wanted to do dangerous. brutal physical labour for peanuts...
 
Alright if I make a very special guest appearance?

I really like this movie, being a fan of Ralph Bakshi's overall.

I recently just thought of an unintentional double entendre regarding the title: yes, our protagonists are all into the popular music of their time (ragtime, jazz, classic/modern rock) but also "Pop" as in "father."

This is a story about the lives of sons, disconnected or lost from their fathers and pursuing their ironically mutual dreams until Zalmie's great-grandson, the blonde-haired and blue-eyed Pete (who can still dig the Hebrew chants that his great-great-grandfather died for) brings it home. There are some Qabbalist notions that a part of the soul is shared through a bloodline forwards and backwards and this distinctly Jewish tale may reflect some of Bakshi's background as such.

I also note that, as the music is reflective of the times, so are the perils to which the family falls victim. Zalmie gets caught up in organized crime. Benny dies in war. Tony is lost in his lack of identity and direction, leading him to drugs and desperation. These are things that partly defined New York City and America during these eras.
 
Last edited:
Since we've had a few posts addressing the American aspect of American Pop, I think I'll make my whole post about the Pop aspect. To quote Zalmie Balinsky "I just love the music" I'll include some of the music used in the film in a series of spoiler tags.

After the opening medley and the scene in Russia featuring one of the few non-American pieces of music in the film, we're in New York at the turn of the century. In this section we heard ragtime, and the music of Broadway musicals, show-tunes for short. Ragtime seems to be hated by almost everybody to the point that the whole genre is basically considered a joke, but I like it.

Maple Leaf Rag was one of the compositions featured. It may not be Schubert, but I still dig it.


Show-tunes can be hit and miss, but this film has some real hits. This wasn't the version in the film, but here's Judy Garland singing I Don't Care by Sutton and Lenox


And of course there's got to be some George M Cohan, "the man who owned Broadway" including his patriotic song Over There during the WWI scenes.



As the film moves into the 20s and 30s there's some later Tin Pan Alley music by greats such as George Gershwin, Jerome Kern, and Cole Porter





Plus just a tad of Swing


These are the songs Benny Belinsky played when he found the piano in the war torn city. The former should be familiar to anyone who's seen Casablanca. The latter is the second non American song in the film.




Once the 50s arrive we're treated to some Post Bebop to go along with the beat poetry, very appropriate.



By the time he's made it to Kansas the 60s have come around. The diner scene had one of my favorite songs, Sam Cooke's You Send Me


Once he makes it to California we start to hear the hippie music that was native to the time and place. It's here that I stop caring for some of the songs. However I do love People are Strange, and rotoscoped Hendrix was one of the more memorable moments of the film.



Another great sequence was after Tony realizes he's got a son, set to Big Brother and the Holding Company's fantastic version of Gershwin's Summertime. This will bring us back to the 30s, but since this scene in question has already been posted I'll add my favorite version of the song.


I didn't really like Lou Reeds solo version of I'm Waiting for the Man, I much prefer the original


Now we've reached the unfortunate period in human history known as the 1980s. I must say I've completely lost interest at this point. Bob Segar and Heart are pretty meh, and the less said about Pat Benatar and The Sex Pistols the better. I did quite like the versions of Devil in a Blues Dress and Blue Suede Shoes, both arranged by Lee Holdridge specifically for the film, but these songs predate the 80s and they weren't really done in an 80s style.

Free Bird was a nice song for the closing credits. Here's a cover version


The use of music in this film paired with the imagery was very evocative of the differing time periods. Capturing the look, sound, and feel of the times is the film's greatest strength IMO.
 
Last edited:
Benny gets drafted into the army, he tries to learn the harmonica, he desperately misses playing the piano, so much so that he gives up his position and gives himself up, just for the chance to play one last song... His killer let him finish... music is the international language. A Nazi and an allied solider both shared a moment of beauty in the middle of that chaos... it was a powerful poignant scene... I loved that one.
That was my favorite scene for sure
He's dating someone with kids, and they disgust him.
Pretty sure those were his half siblings. Tony was the only son of Benny who died overseas while his mob wife was pregnant with him. Then she married a refrigerator salesman, those were his kids with Tony's mom.
Tony like most heroin addicts starts turning tricks for drug money and the boy is witnessing it all.
Woah I must have been stroking out, I completely missed that
 
Last edited:
GOAT Cagney movie.
No that would be

Yankee_Doodle_Dandy_poster.jpeg
 
Last edited:
With UFC 201 right around the corner this week I have been in full MMA mode

I will get back to hardcore movie club mode after this saturday
 
Since we've had a few posts addressing the American aspect of American Pop, I think I'll make my whole post about the Pop aspect.

I didn't understand a single word that you wrote. Well, except Casablanca.:D

Not a music fan at all.

No that would be

Yankee_Doodle_Dandy_poster.jpeg

You have a point... White Heat is probably better.:p

Never actually seen Yankee Doodle Dandy.
 
Since we've had a few posts addressing the American aspect of American Pop, I think I'll make my whole post about the Pop aspect. To quote Zalmie Balinsky "I just love the music" I'll include some of the music used in the film in a series of spoiler tags.

After the opening medley and the scene in Russia featuring one of two none American pieces of music in the film, we're in New York at the turn of the century. In this section we heard ragtime, and the music of Broadway musicals, show-tunes for short. Ragtime seems to be hated by almost everybody to the point that the whole genre is basically considered a joke, but I like it.

Maple Leaf Rag was one of the compositions featured. It may not be Schubert, but I still dig it.


Show-tunes can be hit and miss, but this film has some real hits. This wasn't the version in the film, but here's Judy Garland singing I Don't Care by Sutton and Lenox


And of course there's got to be some George M Cohan, "the man who owned Broadway" including his patriotic song Over There during the WWI scenes.



As the film moves into the 20s and 30s there's some later Tin Pan Alley music by greats such as George Gershwin, Jerome Kern, and Cole Porter





Plus just a tad of Swing


These are the songs Benny Belinsky played when he found the piano in the war torn city. The former should be familiar to anyone who's seen Casablanca. The latter is the second non American song in the film.




Once the 50s arrive we're treated to some Post Bebop to go along with the beat poetry, very appropriate.



By the time he's made it to Kansas the 60s have come around. The diner scene had one of my favorite songs, Sam Cooke's You Send Me


Once he makes it to California we start to hear the hippie music that was native to the time and place. It's here that I stop caring for some of the songs. However I do love People are Strange, and rotoscoped Hendrix was one of the more memorable moments of the film.



Another great sequence was after Tony realizes he's got a son, set to Big Brother and the Holding Company's fantastic version of Gershwin's Summertime. This will bring us back to the 30s, but since this scene in question has already been posted I'll add my favorite version of the song.


I didn't really like Lou Reeds solo version of I'm Waiting for the Man, I much prefer the original


Now we've reached the unfortunate period in human history known as the 1980s. I must say I've completely lost interest at this point. Bob Segar and Heart are pretty meh, and the less said about Pat Benatar and The Sex Pistols the better. I did quite like the versions of Devil in a Blues Dress and Blue Suede Shoes, both arranged by Lee Holdridge specifically for the film, but these songs predate the 80s and they weren't really done in an 80s style.

Free Bird was a nice song for the closing credits. Here's a cover version


The use of music in this film paired with the imagery was very evocative of the differing time periods. Capturing the look, sound, and feel of the times is the film's greatest strength IMO.


This diner music you speak of... did it originate in Kansas? Was there musical significance to Kansas? I'm just wondering what the significance of Kansas was, why it excited him so much, why he wanted to go there... Perhaps the diner scene influenced him, he did take a job in a diner where he met that girl.

To quote from the Sex Pistols songs, "pretty vacant"
After getting an idea of your musical tastes in Bam's Bieberverse, I'm not surprised that you don't like the Sex Pistols, but the lyrics are perfect to describe the youth of the late 70's.

I was also wondering about the musical choices at the end. When little Tony makes it big the band plays. "Blue Suede shoes, Devil with the blue dress, and Crazy on you by Heart... Weird choices for a band in the mid-70's. So why use them?

Well, the first two songs are about fashion and why looking good is so important. Crazy on You is about a girl who's so disillusioned with society that she finds her happiness by having sex with her man all night long. It's the other form of escape after drugs, tv and music)

Perhaps the statement was to succeed you need to have sex appeal? You have to have that "it" factor.

Maybe he was making a statement that music changed, because what women wanted in a man changed... Looks, stability, and fashion-sense became some of the main strengths a woman would look for in a man.

Maybe it's a statement about how the youth of the nation embraced ignorance, and gave up when faced with a system that doesn't want to change.

Here's an excerpt from "Crazy on You" by Heart
Every time I think about it, I want to cry
With bombs and the devil, and the kids keep comin'
No way to breathe easy, no time to be young
But I tell myself that I was doin' all right
There's nothin' left to do at night
But go crazy on you
Crazy on you
Let me go crazy, crazy on you, oh

That was my favorite scene for sure

Pretty sure those were his half siblings. Tony was the only son of Benny who died overseas while his mob wife was pregnant with him. Then she married a refrigerator salesman, those were his kids with Tony's mom.

Woah I must have been stroking out, I completely missed that

OK, I was wondering who those people were. They seemed to appear out of nowhere to me. I must've missed something while I was taking notes.

The "turning tricks" part was a bit of an assumption on my part. But when Tony left his son on the bench and went off in the car with the stranger, I figured that's what was happening. He could've been grabbing but usually after a heroin addict scores they go and shoot-up, not have heart-to-heart conversations with their son... then again if he wasn't high he probably would've kept the money from his sons guitar, because heroin addicts will steal from anyone, the addiction controls them. I'll watch the scene again later tonight if I have time, but I think Bakshi made that part vague for a reason, we were meant to wonder... He could've been writing songs for money... who knows.
 
I didn't understand a single word that you wrote. Well, except Casablanca.:D

Not a music fan at all.

How can someone who loves movies so much just not give a shit about such a complementary art form like music?
 
How can someone who loves movies so much just not give a shit about such a complementary art form like music?

I do have some intrest in music in the way it works in tandem with film. But as a standalone entity my interest is modicum at best.
 
I didn't understand a single word that you wrote. Well, except Casablanca.:D

Not a music fan at all.
tumblr_llz351yX6q1qis4q9o1_500.gif


Never actually seen Yankee Doodle Dandy.
It's actually far from my favorite Cagney I just couldn't resist posting it since it's about Cohen who's music was important to the early part of this film. I'm partial to The Roaring Twenties myself. He also was a great Bottom the weaver, that might be my favorite performance of his.

This diner music you speak of... did it originate in Kansas? Was there musical significance to Kansas? I'm just wondering what the significance of Kansas was, why it excited him so much, why he wanted to go there... Perhaps the diner scene influenced him, he did take a job in a diner where he met that girl.
I can't find a connection between Sam Cooke and Kansas. Kansas City, Missouri is a significant musical town, which is where the band was playing when Little Pete showed up. I think Bakshi probably choose Kansas because it would be likely that a successful band would pass through Kansas City, Missouri, thus creating a plausible scenario for Tony to run into his long lost ejaculation.

As for why he made a big deal about Kansas, I can only assume it's because Kansas is so different from where he grew up. I don't necessarily think he had actually planned to stop in Kansas, it seemed more spur of the moment once he realized he was there. I'm pretty sure he was only there for a single day.
After getting an idea of your musical tastes in Bam's Bieberverse, I'm not surprised that you don't like the Sex Pistols, but the lyrics are perfect to describe the youth of the late 70's.
Yeah I'm not a fan, but I do agree it was a great choice for the film, very evocative of the times and the attitudes.
OK, I was wondering who those people were. They seemed to appear out of nowhere to me. I must've missed something while I was taking notes.
Before he took the money from the drawer and left town the kids said something about Mom not wanting him to go in the room, and he said You don't understand, he wasn't your father.
The "turning tricks" part was a bit of an assumption on my part.
It's possible for sure, he was doing something for drug money, so he must have been either selling or tricking
 
Since we've had a few posts addressing the American aspect of American Pop, I think I'll make my whole post about the Pop aspect. To quote Zalmie Balinsky "I just love the music" I'll include some of the music used in the film in a series of spoiler tags.

After the opening medley and the scene in Russia featuring one of two none American pieces of music in the film, we're in New York at the turn of the century. In this section we heard ragtime, and the music of Broadway musicals, show-tunes for short. Ragtime seems to be hated by almost everybody to the point that the whole genre is basically considered a joke, but I like it.

Maple Leaf Rag was one of the compositions featured. It may not be Schubert, but I still dig it.


Show-tunes can be hit and miss, but this film has some real hits. This wasn't the version in the film, but here's Judy Garland singing I Don't Care by Sutton and Lenox


And of course there's got to be some George M Cohan, "the man who owned Broadway" including his patriotic song Over There during the WWI scenes.



As the film moves into the 20s and 30s there's some later Tin Pan Alley music by greats such as George Gershwin, Jerome Kern, and Cole Porter





Plus just a tad of Swing


These are the songs Benny Belinsky played when he found the piano in the war torn city. The former should be familiar to anyone who's seen Casablanca. The latter is the second non American song in the film.




Once the 50s arrive we're treated to some Post Bebop to go along with the beat poetry, very appropriate.



By the time he's made it to Kansas the 60s have come around. The diner scene had one of my favorite songs, Sam Cooke's You Send Me


Once he makes it to California we start to hear the hippie music that was native to the time and place. It's here that I stop caring for some of the songs. However I do love People are Strange, and rotoscoped Hendrix was one of the more memorable moments of the film.



Another great sequence was after Tony realizes he's got a son, set to Big Brother and the Holding Company's fantastic version of Gershwin's Summertime. This will bring us back to the 30s, but since this scene in question has already been posted I'll add my favorite version of the song.


I didn't really like Lou Reeds solo version of I'm Waiting for the Man, I much prefer the original


Now we've reached the unfortunate period in human history known as the 1980s. I must say I've completely lost interest at this point. Bob Segar and Heart are pretty meh, and the less said about Pat Benatar and The Sex Pistols the better. I did quite like the versions of Devil in a Blues Dress and Blue Suede Shoes, both arranged by Lee Holdridge specifically for the film, but these songs predate the 80s and they weren't really done in an 80s style.

Free Bird was a nice song for the closing credits. Here's a cover version


The use of music in this film paired with the imagery was very evocative of the differing time periods. Capturing the look, sound, and feel of the times is the film's greatest strength IMO.


Nice take, I think music lovers see this movie a bit different than most.
 
I wanted to ask you if you're a big fan of Bakshi's other films, and animation in general

Obligatory post is obligatory.

latest


Does this now mean that I have become a flanderization of myself?
 
Last edited:
Aguirre behind me, now it's time for American Pop. Gotta love days off. I can pound through these.
 
Good old Rotoscoping. Don Bluth loved that stuff, and Take on Me is classic Rotoscope. Heavy Metal too. It may be a little jittery but it almost feels more lifelike. There's a whole lot more violence and death in this animated flick than most others I've seen, and that's interesting.

Surprisingly, I had never heard of this film before. I must have missed it on my travels and studies. I'm glad the SMC is enlightening me. I love the soundtrack, and I'm one of those people that believes the soundtrack can really make or break a film.

It's really strange, I don't actually have a lot to say about this one compared to my previous novel length reviews, despite how I enjoyed it other than one major element. The animation for me reminds me of Akira, in that I can't look at the faces of people without it irritating me for some reason. There was something unnatural about them, exaggerated to the point of frustration for me. The faces, they just bother me. It actually really takes away from the experience, and that's unfortunate because this film had a whole lot to say about being jewish (it comes and goes depending on the generation) and more on the relationship of father to son. I echo sentiments from above, that they should have made this live action.

When a film is made in animation instead of live action (when it can be made in live action), to me there has to be a reason to do it. Maybe it's easier to film scenes, or some unnatural occurrences or action sequences or events. I didn't see many of those here. One such occasion that animation helped the effect was the drug scene, but I've seen some terrific live action drug scenes before (I'm looking at you 21 Jump Street). Someone already said it before, that this animation style really recognizes the fluidity of movement and the body, and there are so many subtle movements like simple hand gestures, clothing bending, or other natural things. The problem is, the depth of expression on faces feel to me cartoony and unrealistic which clashes with the natural movement of the rest of the body. To me, it's a dealbreaker. Also, it's a small thing, but for how detailed the whole body is, the mouths don't always match up. I know it's animation, but it is jarring for someone like me.

What did everyone think of the live action photos and short videos they place intermittently throughout the film? Were the off-putting for you or were they beneficial? For me, they further reinforced the "why the hell is this animated" thought I had running through my head the whole time I watched this.

I enjoyed the film go through the changes of music styles and art (like the beatnik performing Howl in that speakeasy club) as time went on, it reminds me of a project I did in 10th grade writing about the evolution of rock music. American Pop was almost a love letter to the best of art throughout the century (and a few years in the 1800s). Each era that passed, we were surrounded by terrific music. The Mamas & The Papas, Dave Brubeck, Elvis, Benny Goodman, Jimi, The Doors, Pat Benatar, Skynyrd, so so much wonderful music. It was definitely more "Pop" than "American" to me, because this film gave us a very dark version of the "American Dream" of going into show business and becoming a star.

The soundtrack to me was the best character, and I'm not sure if we had any character quite as developed as Tony. We didn't get a full picture on Zalmie, as he was shot through the throat to cancel his music career and fell in love with a stripper and had Benny. Benny was a damaged character right from the beginning, thanks to his dad, and playing a piano in an active warzone isn't the best use of his abilities, even if it granted him a last happy moment before getting nazi-ed.

Tony was fairly fleshed out. Raised with no dad, rebellious and ready to go elsewhere, fell in love with rock and roll, and was a horrrrrrrrrible dad. Danger zone. The drugs, sex, and all that rock and roll. He had Hendrix to play with, sort of, which was awesome. I think the Hendrix scene was my favorite in the film. It only bothered me slightly that his guitar had no strings. Tony was in love with a woman he couldn't have, and then when he could have her, it was only for a few minutes before she self destructed. Lots of self-destructive relationships in this film, that's for sure. It's actually quite bleak if you think about it. This story was plagued with death and dying and loss and pain. Very few happy moments really happened, and those that happened like the wedding were fleeting. It's unfortunate that they made us hate Tony in the end. I did not pity him, and even though I knew his family history, the choices he made were enough to damn him for me.

The last kid, Pete, someone else earlier summed it up beautifully. He wasn't a character, he was a characterization. First of all, how did the kid manage to first get backstage and run into his real dad? That seems rather convenient. I doubt the kid has a lot of mobility, but maybe his mother wanted to see her baby's daddy again? We didn't get to see more of her than a few flashbacky blurry pictures of her. Pete was a victim of circumstances far beyond his control, and was barely even a plot device. He was doomed from the beginning even more than Tony was. If you look at it, the life of the family disintegrated from the originally spiritual and ambitious into something plagued by drugs and misery.

The scene of Pete and the Rabbi was a shocking contrast to the beginning of the family, to show how far they've fallen. I've seen that gif a few times in the first page of this thread so I won't go further into it since pretty much what I wanted to say has been discussed. There's a crazy amount of symbolism in scenes that one, as well as the one immediately after where Pete opens up the piano to put the drugs in before he goes into what sounds like the opening of Night Moves. Yep, a few minutes later, it was Night Moves. To close with Elvis, Devil with a Blue Dress, Crazy on You, and wrapping with Freebird is about the best way they could have gone out with a film like this. The hits kept coming. His family playing in the background with him was surprisingly an emotional moment, and it made me wonder if he finally was the one of his family to make it. I can't resist saying that essentially he was the frontman of the most popular cover band I've ever seen (judging by that packed arena). I know they said in the credits that it was portrayed those songs were written by a fictional character, but my mind says "he's a cover artist in a country that somehow has never heard these hits".

The soundtrack is what really made this movie enjoyable for me. It was deep, dark, and depressing otherwise. It's why I'm so conflicted on reviewing this film overall. It did not need to be animated, and didn't add to the film that it was animated. Some part in my core was irritated by it the whole time, which is why my score may not properly reflect what I've written above. I actually want to give this film two scores to try to supplement my arguments. Yeah, I think I'll do that.

Soundtrack: 10/10, one of the best uses of popular music as the years go by to frame how a film should be followed
Film itself: 6/10, the animation style ruined it for me, but as a film it was a great study on generational relationships and trying to live up to what you think your parents want you to do (read: dads, except for Zelfie or whatever because his dad died off screen). Also reflected a society's transition from religion towards personal successes and goals. If this were live action, I'd have given it an 8.



You remember when I said this would be a short review?

LSPZXI.gif
 
There was something unnatural about them, exaggerated to the point of frustration for me.

Intresting. That thought didn't touch my mind at all.

Somehow I'd like to think that they focused so much on facial expressions to compensate for the lack of detail in other areas. The face is the epicenter for communication, after all. They thought that as long as they went heavy on that they could sell the moment.

What did everyone think of the live action photos and short videos they place intermittently throughout the film? Were the off-putting for you or were they beneficial? For me, they further reinforced the "why the hell is this animated" thought I had running through my head the whole time I watched this.

Frankly, it was just a "okay movie, do your thing" moment for me. You want live-action, you do live-action. I wasn't thinking much about it at all.

There's a whole lot more violence and death in this animated flick than most others I've seen, and that's interesting.

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark and claim that you've never seen any of Bakshi's others work.:p

But even with that, you've obviously seen Akira and Heavy Metal, and those two are much more violent than this one.

Lots of self-destructive relationships in this film, that's for sure. It's actually quite bleak if you think about it. This story was plagued with death and dying and loss and pain. Very few happy moments really happened, and those that happened like the wedding were fleeting.

Well that is fitting. Musicians tend to be people with demons. And the close relationship that music has had with drugs, fame and organized crime certainly cultivates an enviorment where self-destruction abound.

It's unfortunate that they made us hate Tony in the end. I did not pity him, and even though I knew his family history, the choices he made were enough to damn him for me.

I have to say that I find some weird sense of contentedness in Tony's fate. There is an organic realeness to it. All others had grand or poetic fates.

Zalmie's death was something out of a romantic novel. Benny's went down alongside the mafia. Pete become a megastar. These are cinematic endings. The fates of grand people. In contrast, there is a down-to-earth, realeness in how Tony's live pans out. He slides further and further down into drug abuse. It is sad, but it seems like a very logical fate for him to be destroyed by it. It is a poignant human story in contrast to the more cinematic endings of the other characters.
 
Back
Top