SHERDOG MOVIE CLUB: Week 108: OldBoy

[loyalyolayal]

Interesting. I've always assumed he was Japanese.

I guess he loves Japan. He wanted to be a kamikaze pilot for the glory of the emperor. I think he failed the exam.

 

[chickenluver]

Back to the film, one thing that bothered me about Oldboy is he is trying to dig out of his prison with an extra chopstick that was given to him but they have no camera's in the rooms so they never see him doing it. That seemed weird to me because they pump gas into the room to knock them out but have no video to see if he is knocked out before they enter the room.

They do have cameras. When he pulls the guy's teeth out he's sitting in front of several TV screens that each view different prison/room.

The meaning of his name, "getting through one day at a time", really foreshadows the rest of his life.

Hell yeah

 

[MusterX]

They do have cameras. When he pulls the guy's teeth out he's sitting in front of several TV screens that each view different prison/room.

Hell yeah

Well if they have cameras how was he digging out of his cell without them seeing?

 

[chickenluver]

I haven't rewatched this yet, but this is probably the film that I've watched most frequently in the last few years. I've seen it at least six times, most of those being in the last two or three years. I know some people talk about watching certain films dozens of times, but that's never really been my thing, so for me to have watched the same film more twice in a few years is highly unusual. It's a top contender for my favorite film of its decade, as well as the post-2000 cinema in general, or at least it was until director Chan-wook Park managed to top himself last year with The Handmaiden.

I thought somewhat recently about the way that I first heard of this movie. Back in 2004 there was a television program aired called 100 scariest movie moments. Keep in mind I was 12-years-old in 2004, so watching that program was the first I heard of Psycho, The Shining, The Exorcist, The Thing, Texas Chain Saw Massacre, etc. Two years later there was a sequel made called 30 even scarier movie moments, which featured movies that were more recent, foreign made, obscure, not often thought of as scary, or a combination thereof. As a side-note A Clockwork Orange was on this second list and that was how I first heard of it. Anyway, Oldboy was somewhere on the second list as well. This program gave away a lot from the movies, but they were smart with Oldboy because the featured moment itself was the tongue cutting scene, and no one said anything about any other twists or wtf moments. So all I knew about the movie was that a man is imprisoned for 15 years and suddenly released, and that he finds out something that causes him to cut his own tongue out, and I saw the clip of that particular scene. Needless to say I was very intrigued, and saw the film within a year of first hearing of it. I later realized that Oldboy along with Seven Samurai were the films that sparked my interest in non-English language cinema, so for that reason alone it's one of my most important movie experiences.

As some have already mentioned this is a film with a major WTF moment at the end (at several other points as well), but not because it's unclear what happened or what it meant, rather that it's shocking that they actually went there. Because of this subsequent viewings can lack that shock and awe factor, and many might not find it nearly as enjoyable, despite the high quality of the film itself. Although it's been over ten years since the first few times I watched it, I definitely remember that second viewing as not quite having the same effect.

That said, I've been high af on Park's films in general ever since, so I've frequently returned to Oldboy. Of course in a certain sense it's impossible to recapture the feeling of watching it for the first time, short of having a mind wipe, but in my recent viewings I've found that I enjoy the film as much or more than ever. The more familiar I become with it the more I love it.

I'm going to watch it again tonight and go into some specifics after that.

 

[chickenluver]

Well if they have cameras how was he digging out of his cell without them seeing?

I think they could see him doing that. They released him when he was only 1 day away from being able to escape just to fuck with him.

 

[MusterX]

I’ve noticed that Korean films aren’t afraid of having a tragic conclusion (i.e. Mother, Train to Busan, A Werewolf Boy, and to a lesser degree The Host)

70's Hollywood called and want their endings back<45>

Timestamped for your pleasure, 0:15-0:27

 

[Coolthulu]

Oldboy is a hyper visceral, darkly funny and an exciting revenge thriller. Yet, weirdly, the film it brought to mind was Amelie. It was weird. I don't recall any tongue extractions or live octopus ingestion's in the charmingly cute Jeunet film. But there it is. Something about the puzzle box nature of the plot, the music and the style linked the two films in my mind.

There is enough that makes Oldboy stand out from the usual stylishly violent revenge movie to make it pretty remarkable. There is the mystery - like Point Blank, part of it is a case of our hero finding out who is he to take his vengeance out on in the first place. He also has to discover the motive behind his imprisonment and release. The hidden motives and the puzzling nature of the plot provide a lot of intrigue. Min Sik Choi is a charismatic and rather fucked up dude. He is presented as a constantly drunk and deeply flawed man. But he gains focus from his 15 year imprisonment (a 15 year solitary stretch is bound to do that, I guess!) as well as the time to turn himself into a fucking hardened bad ass.

The fight scenes are aces. No flashy cuts and multiple angles, just straight on, exciting and unforgiving brutality. But with just an edge of humor to make them entertaining in a broader sense too. This humor really helps throughout the film in lightening up the grim mood that pretty much dominates the film. Apart from the puzzle box plotting and the charismatic hero, we have moments that you are always likely to remember. Eating a live octopus in a sushi restaurant. Yep, not something I'm likely to forget. The left to right tracking shot as he beats up a whole corridor of baddies. The tongue scene.

If there is a criticism, it is a minor one. It really goes to great pains to explain everything in a brazenly cackling way. Although, having said that, the ending remains nicely ambivalent. In a film full of teeth, that grimace at the end is the most telling shot of someone's pearly-whites. But I liked almost everything about the film. The grime. The almost 70's like reality of some of the street scenes allied with the stylized camerawork. The humor. The tone of puzzling oddness. The shocking jolts and the confidence and sheer verve of the film-making. Great stuff.

Oh & it's the most complicated case of trolling the fuck out of someone I've seen in a long time.

 

[moreorless87]

Since you bring up the Americanization of Korea, it's interesting to see how Korea has reacted to American involvement and compare that to Japan. Our involvement in each country is similar in a lot of ways. But Korea seems to have been Westernized in ways that the xenophobic Japan has not.

For instance, you'll notice all the Christian imagery in both Oldboy and Thirst. Apparently about 30% of South Korea is Christian. It's the country's dominant religion. On the other hand, only about 1-2% of Japanese identify as Christian.

Honestly I tend to think that generally the Japanese are more pro American, I mean post WW2 Japan has been united and prosperous as a strong US ally where as Korea has been divided on cold war lines and until recent decades both less prosperous and democratic. Christianity in Korea was actually quiet unique in that it was imported by Koreans who visited Europe and converted not via missionarys which mean it didn't have as much potical backlash against it plus of course Korea wasn't even self governing under Japanese rule.

I think in terms of cinema perhaps the issue is that Japanese cinema has much more of a weight of history on it, theres certainly a lot of US influence there but it was happening in the mid 20th century where as S Korean cinema is very new which arguably lends itself both to influence and originality.

You did obviously have Takashi Miike producing some of his strangest and most original stuff in this period of course. Looking back at it I do think you could argue that this "extreme asia" cinema has lost a bit of its bite with time, back in the 90's and early 00's it was the first exposure a lot of people had to non mainstream film making.

 

[Guestx]

Not TKD but have you seen Fighter in the Wind? Korean movie about Kyokushin founder Mas Oyama?

Looks really good, though if it's supposed to be about Oyama then it's clearly a highly fictionalized account of his life.

For anyone who is interested:





There's another karate movie that I've been meaning to watch for a while but it's hard to get a hold of unless you want to shell out $25 for the DVD. I can't even find a high-quality trailer for it or one with English subtitles.

You gotta agree this sounds pretty awesome:

The events take place in 1932 in Japanese-occupied Manchuria, in which the corrupt leaders of the Japanese army are trying to take over all the Karate dojos /training halls for their own benefit. The master Eiken Shibahara (Yosuke Natsuki), from one of these dojo located on the southernmost Japanese island of Kyushu, dies before passing on the Kuroobi/ black belt to his successor. Three of his pupils: Taikan (Tatsuya Naka 7th Dan JKA Shotokan karate), Giryu (Akihito Yagi 7th Dan Meibukan Gōjū-ryū Karate) and Choei (Yuji Suzuki, 1st Dan Kyokushin karate), have the task of deciding amongst themselves who deserves it most.

After they bury their master, they are forced to leave the dojo and join the Japanese army. At this point, their journeys lead them on different paths both in life and in the understanding of their master's teachings of martial arts. They are reunited in the end, to battle together against corruption and uphold tradition.

 

[Guestx]

I had no prior knowledge when I watched it and the twist ending horrified me because it was so unexpected. I'm thinking the film is going to end on a high note with Oh-dae Su getting his revenge and the next thing I know this is me.....

I've seen some discussion over whether the ending--the very end, that is--could be considered a happy one.

Apparently the director (I think it was the director) said that it's either a happy ending that's sad or a sad ending that's happy. That makes sense to me since I'm pretty ambivalent about it.

She was spared the pain of knowing what's up and he's been hypnotized into forgetfulness . . . so now they can be incestuously together with a clear conscience.

Is that a happy ending or a sad one? I have no idea.

 

[Fedorgasm]

It's in my top 3 movies I've ever seen.

Absolutely loved this movie. Watched again a few weeks ago and loved every minute. Although it could never be as good as the first time. Kinda like sex.

 

[MusterX]

I've seen some discussion over whether the ending--the very end, that is--could be considered a happy one.

Apparently the director (I think it was the director) said that it's either a happy ending that's sad or a sad ending that's happy. That makes sense to me since I'm pretty ambivalent about it.

She was spared the pain of knowing what's up and he's been hypnotized into forgetfulness . . . so now they can be incestuously together with a clear conscience.

Is that a happy ending or a sad one? I have no idea.

Its horrific no matter how you spin it, at least for me. He was kidnapped on his daughters birthday. She grew up not ever knowing what happened to him. He was imprisoned in a hotel room for 15 years and became obsessed with vengeance. In the end he cuts his own tongue out with a pair of scissors. The hypnosis at the end doesn't change it much for me. He's still banging his daughter whether he knows it or not and here is the kicker. If they had some sort of true love then maybe it could pass for a somewhat twisted happy ending but the love wasn't even real.

His daughter was hypnotized to fall in love with him. Its not even real, not for her or him.

 

[Guestx]

Its horrific no matter how you spin it, at least for me. He was kidnapped on his daughters birthday. She grew up not ever knowing what happened to him. He was imprisoned in a hotel room for 15 years and became obsessed with vengeance. In the end he cuts his own tongue out with a pair of scissors. The hypnosis at the end doesn't change it much for me. He's still banging his daughter whether he knows it or not and here is the kicker. If they had some sort of true love then maybe it could pass for a somewhat twisted happy ending but the love wasn't even real.

His daughter was hypnotized to fall in love with him. Its not even real, not for her or him.

I get what you're saying but some might argue that hypnosis doesn't make something not real.

If someone was able to hypnotize me into liking squash--a food I normally detest--and then I ate it and enjoyed it, my enjoyment is real at that point.

 

[MusterX]

I get what you're saying but some might argue that hypnosis doesn't make something not real.

If someone was able to hypnotize me into liking squash--a food I normally detest--and then I ate it and enjoyed it, my enjoyment is real at that point.

Yea but, they never would have fallen in love otherwise. It wasn't real, it was planted in their head. I get what you are saying that they still feel like its real but its no less horrific to me. When @Coolthulu says, "Oldboy is a hyper visceral , darkly funny and exciting revenge thriller." I'm thinking wat? Darkly funny? My first viewing was Top 10 most horrified I've ever been while watching a film because we spent an hour and a half marching ever closer to Oldboy's revenge, inching ever closer, ever closer, and at the moment of truth when the vengeance is upon us, Oldboy gets epiclly screwed in one of the cruelest twists of fate I've ever seen.

 

[Coolthulu]

Yea but, they never would have fallen in love otherwise. It wasn't real, it was planted in their head. I get what you are saying that they still feel like its real but its no less horrific to me. When @Coolthulu says, "Oldboy is a hyper visceral , darkly funny and exciting revenge thriller." I'm thinking wat? Darkly funny? My first viewing was Top 10 most horrified I've ever been while watching a film because we spent an hour and a half marching ever closer to Oldboy's revenge, inching ever closer, ever closer, and at the moment of truth when the vengeance is upon us, Oldboy gets epiclly screwed in one of the cruelest twists of fate I've ever seen.

 

[MusterX]

 

[moreorless87]

Japanese cinema being so focused on martial arts releases if you could argue as well something of a recent trend, I mean you obviously had a lot of chanbara from the late 50's to the early 70's but after that point he seemed to decline a good deal only to have a bit of a revival in the early 00's, the Twilight Samurai getting so much praise/success seemed to be a turning point. You now have someone like Miike doing films in the genre quite often rather than his earlier Yakuza crime releases.

Korean cinema does seem to be becoming a bit more focused on period films recently as well with Woo-Parks The Handmaiden an obvious one.

 

[chickenluver]

This movie takes a page out of the Scorsese playbook by opening with a later scene. Scorsese typically uses a scene from the middle or end, but in this case it's from only roughly 20 minutes later. The way it's used out of context basically misrepresents what's actually happening, making it look like Dae-su is threatening the guy with dropping him off the building. It works as an exciting beginning, and also hints at things not being what they first appear to be in this film.

The scene when he's in the elevator with a woman and he freaks out is pretty funny. It's rather ambiguous what he does to her. At the very least he stole her sunglasses, but considering he tries to Mi-do not long after this he could have groped her. She seemed pretty upset while speaking with the police officer, but obviously he got distracted by the guy jumping off the roof.

Speaking of that guy, he's a rather grim aspect that has nothing really to do with our main character. There just happens to be a guy on the roof about to kill himself, quite a convenient way for Dae-su to narrate the story of his imprisonment to us. It's almost as if he's us, the audience. But then he kills himself


I guess Korea has a high suicide rate. The guy starts to tell Dae-su why he wants to kill himself, Dae-su gets up and walks away immediately. We never actually hear his reason, then next we see him he hits the car. A commentary on lack of proper counseling for depressed and suicidal people in Korea perhaps?

How did the villain come to be raising Oh-dae Su's daughter. He just says, "I've been raising her since she was three." Okay. How did that happen? Was there no family to take care of the daughter after Oh-dae Su's wife is killed? What she put up for adoption? This is never satisfactorily explained.

Is that essential information? Would the movie be more enjoyable if we had detailed explanations for these questions?

And what was the deal about Oh-dae su's daughter being in Stockholm? That totally confused me.

That was a dummy set up by Woo-jin. Dae-su's actual daughter Mi-do (the one he bangs) was never in Stockholm.

Speaking of Oh-dae Su's wife being killed, that whole plot element just evaporates with a single line about the case being dismissed. It ultimately has no real effect on the story and seems to be a questionable element of the writing.

It's a major factor is his obsession with revenge. He has no life to go back to after he gets released.

Back to the film, one thing that bothered me about Oldboy is he is trying to dig out of his prison with an extra chopstick that was given to him but they have no camera's in the rooms so they never see him doing it. That seemed weird to me because they pump gas into the room to knock them out but have no video to see if he is knocked out before they enter the room.

Watching again I noticed Dae-su says he's one month from breaking through the wall, not one day.

I'm pretty confident they could see him digging out and were monitoring his progress. They didn't intervene because he was released before he could finish.

On a completely unrelated thought, it was quite the strangeness to see that opening scene at the hilarity of his buffoonery and then realize that is the guy who kicks everyone's ass with a claw hammer. The film opens with a comedic scene and then goes south like a MF'er.

Not sure if you caught this from the trivia:

Scenes at the police station with drunken and disorderly Dae-su Oh were the very last scenes the director scheduled to film. Min-sik Choi (Dae-su Oh) ad-libbed most of these "drunken" scenes, including the scene of him playing with toy wings that he bought for his daughter. He also ad-libbed many of his lines during the penthouse scene, including the anthem of his school.

Him ad-libbing that is pretty crazy to me, because that's the only scene we see of him in a normal setting before his imprisonment. So Min-sik Choi was able to at least partially decide for himself what the character would be like. The part about the flapping of the toy wings is especially interesting because during the reveal of Mi-do being his daughter she also flaps the wings. After Dae-su gets taken there is a close up on the wings laying in the street, but I remembered the wings when I saw Mi-do with them because the Dae-su flapping, I'm not sure I would have made the connection if it was just shot of them in the street.

Yet, weirdly, the film it brought to mind was Amelie.

I never would have made that connection, but they have similarly whimsical music, and neither are particularly grounded in reality, almost like fairy tales. Except Amelie is like a modern fairy tale where mostly nice stuff happens, while Oldboy is like classic fairy tales where fucked up things happen.

live octopus ingestion

That was and is the most shocking scene in the movie for me, even more so then the twists and the tongue scene. Mostly because it's not not fake in any way, the guy really eats a live octopus whole with the arms grabbing his face while he consumes it. When Mi-do puts her hand on his and he passes out he still has the ends of two arms sticking out of his mouth. The fact that Min-sik Choi is a Buddhist adds a totally different weight to that scene, since it's against the faith to take a life. Makes his commitment to the film a lot more intense. If he is a devout Buddhist that was certainly the most difficult scene for him.

If there is a criticism, it is a minor one. It really goes to great pains to explain everything in a brazenly cackling way. Although, having said that, the ending remains nicely ambivalent. In a film full of teeth, that grimace at the end is the most telling shot of someone's pearly-whites. But I liked almost everything about the film. The grime. The almost 70's like reality of some of the street scenes allied with the stylized camerawork. The humor. The tone of puzzling oddness. The shocking jolts and the confidence and sheer verve of the film-making. Great stuff.

Was this your first time seeing it?

Oh & it's the most complicated case of trolling the fuck out of someone I've seen in a long time.

lmao. Yeah that guy went all out. Makes David Fincher's The Game look like a fun time.

She was spared the pain of knowing what's up and he's been hypnotized into forgetfulness . . . so now they can be incestuously together with a clear conscience.

Is that a happy ending or a sad one? I have no idea.

His smile changes into a look of great pain. I think it's meant as ambiguous. Personally I interpret it as he remembers. Not sure where they go from there. I guess they stay together and he lives in a state of constant mental and emotional anguish.

I'd say it's a happy ending if he forgets. If two people are family but unaware of that fact and never become aware then what's the problem? What you don't know can't hurt you amirite?

I'm thinking wat? Darkly funny? My first viewing was Top 10 most horrified I've ever been while watching a film because we spent an hour and a half marching ever closer to Oldboy's revenge, inching ever closer, ever closer, and at the moment of truth when the vengeance is upon us, Oldboy gets epiclly screwed in one of the cruelest twists of fate I've ever seen.

I think darkly funny is apt. It mostly subsides by the last act, although even then when we get the reveal of Mi-do as his daughter and see her flapping the toy wings it's a rather silly and comical sight in and of itself, although if you were in a crowded theatre and laughed out loud at that moment people would probably think you were a fucking weirdo.

 

[MusterX]

Him ad-libbing that is pretty crazy to me, because that's the only scene we see of him in a normal setting before his imprisonment. So Min-sik Choi was able to at least partially decide for himself what the character would be like. The part about the flapping of the toy wings is especially interesting because during the reveal of Mi-do being his daughter she also flaps the wings. After Dae-su gets taken there is a close up on the wings laying in the street, but I remembered the wings when I saw Mi-do with them because the Dae-su flapping, I'm not sure I would have made the connection if it was just shot of them in the street.

I think darkly funny is apt. It mostly subsides by the last act, although even then when we get the reveal of Mi-do as his daughter and see her flapping the toy wings it's a rather silly and comical sight in and of itself, although if you were in a crowded theatre and laughed out loud at that moment people would probably think you were a fucking weirdo.

That's a good catch on the angel wings because by the time she wears them in the prison room I had forgot about her father wearing them in the police station at the beginning of the film. I think the question for me becomes, where did those wings come from? The original wings were laying in the street in a mud puddle when Oh-dae Su gets abducted. Then 15 years later there is a pair of them in the box. That seems odd.

Other than the police station scene, which was funny, I didn't find it to be comedic in any way. As I had posted before, my first viewing of Oldboy left me horrified. I mean, if you are going to laugh as she sits on the bed flapping the wings then at least know the irony of it all. She is flapping the angel wings she never received from her father because he was abducted on her birthday and never seen again. To compound that and make things even worse, the box on the table next to her contains the knowledge that she's being having sex with her father.

 

[FrontNakedChoke]

Terribly sorry guys, I've been kind of sick this week

I'm not even half way through this film and I love it.

Going to finish the rest after work today.