self defense vs combat sport

[sanshoufist]

I remember that there was a thread about this but I don't remember which forum it was on (standup or grappling? I don't remember) But someone wrote a very interesting and well detailed description of the difference between the two.

I just wanted to see what other peoples opinions are on this topic. (BTW if anyone has the link that thread please post it on this one i'd like to read it again thanks!:icon_lol

Anyways what do you guys think of just self-defense programs compared to actually learning a martial art? We can all say that learning a type of martial art is already self defense in a way. There has been people saying that self defense techniques does not work because it is for training purposes and not actually trying to KO/submit your opponent. Plus, people have mentioned that in those programs your opponent isnt a live opponent which also gives you no preperation in defending youself in a real situation on the streets. So there has been alot of critisicm about this and then there has been people saying that BJJ or certain standup does not work either because it is a "sport." Since its a sport you have to follow rules. But in combat sports your training partners and your opponents/competitiors are all going to be live figures. They will give resistance, and make you work for position, and also in that world usually your opponent is an experienced fighter that knows whats going on, or they have an idea of what is about to come next. Also in sports there are rules of what you can and cannot do. For example in a MMA fight you cannot eye gouge your opponent.

But as for a street situation your faced with someone who may not have any experience in training or MA but can potentially hurt you or want to kill you. Combat sports you could have bad intentions also but the degree of injury would not be the same as if you were to get hurt in a real situation.

I do not believe that either sport or self defense systems are bad, I believe the two would be the best if you were to combine the two. In combat sports you train to learn technique/movements, become athletic, flexiable, and smarter to defeat your opponent. But also in self defense you learn to use whatever that would be efficient and as quick as possible to finish your opponent. It does not even have to be a KO or submission to gain an upper hand on your opponent and finish him off. You dont have time to get into position to finish your opponent you just need to react as quick as possible.

Anyways this may be a repost about this topic but lemme know what you think of this. And if someone finds that link post it here thanks!!

 

[Rink]

The obvious answer is the one you concluded your post with. But I'll say that most combat sports are practical enough for self-defense even without specific self-defense drilling. Because regular live sparring will give you a huge advantage over most people who don't train.

But the thing about sparring is that you try to simulate combat in a realistic yet safe way. So it's difficult to incorporate a lot of self-defense techniques in sparring without hurting your sparring partner. How many people are going to let you punch them in the balls or run at them with a knife for the sake of practice? Unless you're training with Special Ops guys something, it's hard to find.

So here's my take. Self-defense relies a lot on your common sense and ability to adapt to the situation. So taking for example, boxing or Muay Thai is enough because if you're proficient and spar hard regularly, you should be able to handle a guy who's trying to wail on you. But in the case of multiple attackers or weapons, the smart thing to do is run away and/or involve the authorities no matter what you train in. Drilling defense specific techniques will certainly be better than nothing, and it's possible with enough experience and training one can pull them off without having used such techniques in sparring.

I also think if you're really worried about self-defense, you should obtain a legal weapon of some sort. If I lived in a bad area and had the money, I would get a gun.

 

[ahheadlock]

i think the above post is a good one.

personally i think i would advocate a martial art where sparring / live contact is involved. eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, Kyokushin, etc. Just because a lot of things go out of the window really fast when someone starts resisting in an unpredictable way. Being able to keep your composure is half the battle.

The basic 'dirty fighting' actions are pretty common sense and perhaps even instinctual. You might be surprised how naturally they may come in a situation where you really really need to use them. Eg. Eye gouging, ball kicking, biting, etc.

 

[AbsoluteEvil]

Every time it comes up about if MMA or another martial art would be useful in a real-world situation against a "street fighter" I have to wonder what makes people think that once you're trained you would only use techniques you've learned in that art. I've trained thai boxing for almost 7 years and trained MMA for almost five, I've spent more hours than I could ever count in the gym and fought professionally and I will tell you this; if I'm in a real-life situation, I am the dirtiest fighter you'll ever see.

My dad instilled in me early that when it came to fighting you needed to put the other guy down as fast and as hard as you could because that might be the only way you come out alive. If that's a choke that presents itself or whatever that's great, but I promise you I'm going to be just as worried about if I can kick him in the balls or get my fingers into his eyes.

Add martial arts to your tool box, no matter what you train it will help you handle the situation better than if you had no training at all, but don't for one second think it would take away your natural instincts. The reason dirty fighting exists it because it works.
(I know this wanders a bit off topic)

 

[HDJ1982]

AbsoluteEvil is 100% right...I have also trained inmartial arts since a young kid(almost 20yrs) and I have competed in mma and grappling comps. A competitive situation and the street are two very different things and need to be treated as such. The lack of undersstanding in this respect is what causes so many novice martial artists to get hurt. A year of BJJ and kids go out and try to arm bar guys in street situations and end up getting their head cracked on the pavement, or stomped by multiple attakcers.

I never advocate street fighting, but if you are forced to defend yourself, you must fight to preserve yourself, not to go for a flying trianlge, or some flashy technique. I have seen so many young guys get hurt this way. If I was attacked in the street, and I have been, my weapon of choic is a very authoritive kick to the groin followed by a quick exit if possible.

 

[lukewall]

I'll take the well trained and well conditioned sport fighter over some guy that trains how to kick/bite/gouge a couple times a week. That hard training is going to be more important to you in a physical confrontation in the street than a few nutshot and eye gouge techniques. Being able to control your adrenalin/emotions/reactions is something that comes from regularly being in the gym and being in competition. The last place I want to be if I take a hard shot in the face for the first time is in the middle of a street fight. Some people just don't know how to react to that.

 

[soda_popinski]

Self defense involves learning how to be aware of your surroundings, how to use a gun and get a permit for it, and also legal aspects of using any defense technique against someone.

Martial arts are a great part of self defense but honestly a lot of people have star wars or dragon ball z fantasies when it comes to 'the street' vs the cage or whatever. For instance, take the groin shot. Have you ever been kicked in the groin? I have, all the time in MT practice (and hard against trained fighters) when I forget to wear a cup and it sucks. But guess what, if I am attacking you, that shot will only make me more mad. If you truly want to know what will stop someone, ask yourself, what works in practice against fully resisting opponents? If you can knock someone out or choke someone out in practice you can probably do it on the street too, however, how do you know how someone will react when you bite them? They might just get more mad or even get more violent than they already are. Use techniques that are effective. Watch the first few UFCs, there were actually no rules (there was an eye poke in one of them) or you can even go back to the old school vale tudo fights where again there were no rules, no rounds, and no weight classes.

As far as knives, multiple attackers, and weapons go, NO art trains you for that unless it involves running away or pulling the trigger. Dogg bros do a decent job with the weapons but that is debatable by some. Any art claiming to deal with these things is not being honest. I train with an ex-navy seal and he often jokes about weapons training. He says they were taught that if someone has a knife or there are multiple people, he better have his gun or he is in for it because he will probably be leaving that fight severely hurt if not dead.

Having said all that, I would take the someone who has trained in both grappling/stand up any day over the average joe on the street in a street fight or SD situation.

 

[marceloISbest]

I hate it when people say that a super secret uber Delta force member would destroy a pro mma fighter on the street. Its just plain ridiculous. People like that train everyday, multiple times/day to do one thing: fight and win against one person in an unarmed situation. The spec ops dudes can kill very effectively but its not like in the movies where they will just walk up behind you and break your neck killing you instantly. It actually takes quite a bit to break a healthy persons neck. Much more than walking from behind and twisting. Soldiers are trained to be the best marksman possible, not the best fighters.

With that said, the technique/muscle memory and physical conditioning that comes along with training a combat sport is a huge advantage. In many ways, a combat sport is an effective martial art and self defense in itself.

 

[Gawd]

Guys who train MMA for hours every day should know most of the illegal techniques too imo.

"Everybody underestimates the kick in the groin"

 

[caelitus]

train whatever you like but without legitimate sparring your self-defense training will be missing a huge component. Don't discount combat sports as a means of training self-defense --also many of these gyms have their own traditions and do respect the roots of the various styles

 

[Rink]

I hate it when people say that a super secret uber Delta force member would destroy a pro mma fighter on the street. Its just plain ridiculous. People like that train everyday, multiple times/day to do one thing: fight and win against one person in an unarmed situation. The spec ops dudes can kill very effectively but its not like in the movies where they will just walk up behind you and break your neck killing you instantly. It actually takes quite a bit to break a healthy persons neck. Much more than walking from behind and twisting. Soldiers are trained to be the best marksman possible, not the best fighters.

I wouldn't say Spec Ops guys are better street fighters, but if it's a life and death situation, I would say a highly trained soldier will be better at using every possible tool he can acquire to kill his opponent. professional fighters have better fighting technique, but willing to kill is another thing entire. Those Delta or SEAL guys are fucking killers, not fighters. A career fighter might hesitate or choke if they're about to willingly kill a dude, those SF guys don't fucking blink.

Of course on the street, I wouldn't say that's a desirable thing since you don't wanna go to jail for manslaughter.

 

[marceloISbest]

Interesting take on it. Im an 11X in US Army(Infantry) and if it was a real live situation, I highly doubt the soldier would want to kill a fellow countryman and catch all the flak that comes with it. Maybe if he was attacked by an MMA fighter in a different country that wasnt an ally, then maybe. Still, most of the hand-to-hand combat taught is MMA and mostly BJJ-based. If it was a life or death situation, I would bet on the pro fighter winning the majority of the time, if not everytime when sizes are equal. Killer instinct wont matter a whole lot when unconscious or with broken limbs or both. You could have killed many people in your life but if you are caught in an effective triangle armbar and get choked unconscious and your elbow hyper-extended as well, then when youre unconscious proceed to having your face stomped repeatedly before the fighter decides to scoot out and go home killer instinct wont mean much.

Sure, the soldier could very well kill the fighter if he was to get the upper hand, but I just dont see the soldier getting the upper hand much at all, if ever. And Im not going to go into if one of them picks up an improvised weapon, that depends on what they know, and you could start bringing kali/escrima etc into the discussion. Im speaking strictly unarmed.

 

[Charlitos1988]

I thing the advantge on selfdefense, the real ones , is that they train "specific situations", for example, how to get out of 5 people punching and kicking around, what kind of weapon use in a determinate moment, as a wallet, a pencil, a notebook, and the most important the mindsetting, you're actually became aware of your surroundings always looking back on the street and even wtach out what you say in front of strange people that can use that information against you, like "hey my granny will be alone in my house, I hope she'll be ok"; "let's go have some beers, I just get my salary".

 

[Jukai]

Self defense involves learning how to be aware of your surroundings, how to use a gun and get a permit for it, and also legal aspects of using any defense technique against someone.

Martial arts are a great part of self defense but honestly a lot of people have star wars or dragon ball z fantasies when it comes to 'the street' vs the cage or whatever. For instance, take the groin shot. Have you ever been kicked in the groin? I have, all the time in MT practice (and hard against trained fighters) when I forget to wear a cup and it sucks. But guess what, if I am attacking you, that shot will only make me more mad. If you truly want to know what will stop someone, ask yourself, what works in practice against fully resisting opponents? If you can knock someone out or choke someone out in practice you can probably do it on the street too, however, how do you know how someone will react when you bite them? They might just get more mad or even get more violent than they already are. Use techniques that are effective. Watch the first few UFCs, there were actually no rules (there was an eye poke in one of them) or you can even go back to the old school vale tudo fights where again there were no rules, no rounds, and no weight classes.

As far as knives, multiple attackers, and weapons go, NO art trains you for that unless it involves running away or pulling the trigger. Dogg bros do a decent job with the weapons but that is debatable by some. Any art claiming to deal with these things is not being honest. I train with an ex-navy seal and he often jokes about weapons training. He says they were taught that if someone has a knife or there are multiple people, he better have his gun or he is in for it because he will probably be leaving that fight severely hurt if not dead.

Having said all that, I would take the someone who has trained in both grappling/stand up any day over the average joe on the street in a street fight or SD situation.

Bas Rutten disagrees with pretty much everything you have said.

 

[Jukai]

Also, people need to stop saying "most of the stuff taught is MMA" because that means nothing. If I learned Ninjitsu, Akido, and Pehlwani, I'm a mixed martial artist. I know MMA.

 

[Ramsey Dewey]

Addressing the question "What's the difference between self defense and a combat sport: They are almost the opposite thing.

Combat Sport = attack the other guy until he can't or won't fight back anymore.
Self defense ≠ attack assailants until they can't or won't fight back anymore.

What is taught as self defense won't hold up in a sport fight. Throwing a handful of dirt in the other guy's face and then running doesn't work so well when you're locked in a fight cage. Similarly, what is taught for MMA competition is way too much force for an average bar fight (you'd go to jail), and not nearly enough to handle an armed assailant with a knife or a gun (you'd get killed)

To legally prove that violence is self defense, you need to prove that your assailant was both able and willing to kill or seriously harm you. Proof in most cases means a lethal weapon was used in the attack.

Consider the true story of Olga Zajac. She was a hairdresser, who happened to have a black belt in karate. One day, a man attempted to rob her shop. Ms. Zajac incapacitated the robber with a single kick. Up to that point, everyone can agree that it was self-defense. What followed went way beyond self defense and turned into aggravated assault, unlawful detainment, and sexual battery.

After beating the man unconscious, Ms. Zajac dragged the man to the back room, chained him to a radiator, and spent the next few days raping the guy to "teach him a lesson". When he finally escaped, the robber had to go to the hospital for treatment of severe injuries to his groin/pelvic area.

It stopped being self defense after the threat of harm was over. As important as retribution might feel, it is never justifiable as self defense.

The vast majority of street fights are not self defense situations. People getting mad at each other and fighting over pride, anger, or hurt feelings is never self defense.

I'll tell you what, in a real self defense situation, you will always be at a disadvantage. Your assailants will usually be bigger, stronger, have larger numbers, and weapons. Unless you're the Batman, there's no way you'll find yourself the victor in that situation. It's hard enough to fight just one equally matched, unarmed opponent in the ring. Any good self defense course is going to be all about exit strategies.

 

[Irn Bru Freak]

I see combat sports and self defence being completely opposite. combat sports is about fighting. Self defence is about avoiding a fight at all costs.

Self defence is 1% violence, that 1% is the last resort and about only fighting enough to enable an escape (premptive strikes to the jaw etc), rather than a submission or a knock out. Most of the self defence training is about not putting yourself in a postion where you could be prey on by an individual or person, recognising predatory attacks before they happen etc.

In my head voilence/self defence can be split into two sections

Predatory voilence These types of people are not looking for a fight either, they are looking for an easy pick. They don't confront anyone they think may have a slight chance of beating them. I think we need to realise that most predatory voilence in reality only happens when they person who intends to attack you does it in a way they they are almost certain to win ie

• attack from behind
• sucker punch
• attacking in numbers

Displays of dominance. The 'pre fight ritual' like the monkey dance

Violence Dynamics | YMAA.COM
More About Violence Dynamics | YMAA.COM

It's an amazing peice of social development. Ever wonder why someone puffs up their chest, stares at your, points fingers, shouts etc before a fight? It's all about establishing an order of dominance without resorting to potentially harmful confrontation. The point in the prefight ritual is our DNA trying to avoid a fight in the first place. To understand self defence you need to be able to see the build up of the monkey dance, not get involved/respond in it, which is harder than you think.

 

[soda_popinski]

Also, people need to stop saying "most of the stuff taught is MMA" because that means nothing. If I learned Ninjitsu, Akido, and Pehlwani, I'm a mixed martial artist. I know MMA.

FYI this is totally incorrect. MMA is a sport. If you learned ninjitsu akida and pehlwani you are NOT a mixed martial artist. You are a mixed martial artist if you step in to an MMA ring and train for MMA the sport.

 

[Jukai]

FYI this is totally incorrect. MMA is a sport. If you learned ninjitsu akida and pehlwani you are NOT a mixed martial artist. You are a mixed martial artist if you step in to an MMA ring and train for MMA the sport.

Fair enough.

 

[XMETALHEADX]

ive been training Krav Maga with the IKMF for almost 5 yrs now, plus on the side i have done muay thai (2 yrs) and bjj (like 6-8 months), i would like to say TS that at least in my formal krav training i do train with "live partners" we spar like we spar in muay thai and we also grapple in the floor not for the intention submitting opponents but for getting dominant position to neutralize the threat or to simply get away. we also do a lot of knife/gun training and we definitly mix it up. in some sparring sessions with full gear on (head gear, 12-16 oz boxing gloves, shin guards, cup) we'll start full sparring against 1 or 2 guys and one of them will whip out a knife or a gun and its up to you to react against the threat, ive been stabbed or hit with a padded club a many times...but i have defended a lot of times as well. its the only way to practice.

in krav we fusion a lot of muay and wrestling....they always say that its a mixtrue of boxing with rasslin' but i dont know why they say that beacuse they teach us kicks, elbows and knees, clinch situations but anyways...

i can say with ease that a combat sport will do the trick most of the times as well as long as its only striking or ground threats, against a weapon or multiple attackers self defense comes in very handy.

ive gotten along mixing up my muay thai angles inside krav maga, beacuse they dont teach us how to use angles or a lot combinations.

so a 50/50 combination of both, self defense and combat sport is be very effective.

none is better than the other.