Scarf hold- underhook or not?

[[Tycho?]]

So in sambo today we were just doing basic positional stuff, good review, etc. My coach showed how to go from side control into kesa gatame (ie no underhood). I asked him why; side control basically gives you that underhook on the far side, why would you give it up? Now I know that it is a good move itself; we've all been under those judo guys who use kesa almost as a submission hold they're so heavy. But the underhook version is far more common in BJJ.

He said it was an issue of strikes. That in an MMA or a street situation, kesa allows greater defense vs strikes, and also protects you from having your face gouged. He demonstrated this by getting kesa and placing his head right next to his partners head. This did indeed make it impossible for his face to be gouged from that position.

Do you guys have any comments or experience on this? I pretty well always perfect the underhook for the sake of control. Do you find that kesa gatame is a safer position to be in, striking wise?

 

[MUFC]

prefer underhook. underhook to control then step around for the farside armbar/kimura combo.

 

[An end for]

I'm only used to do it as a scarf proper. Headlock the dude's head, pull the arm back, and weigh down on him until I feel like I finally got something good for being overweight. Never tried to use an underhook.

 

[fiftysvn]

My technique is bad without the underhook. Whenever I just wrap his head he always pops out and escapes.

With the underhook I like to attack the armbar on his inside arm by putting my outside foot over his head and trapping his arm/elbow on my hip. There's also a nice americana from there if he tries to prevent my foot from going over his face.

 

[Balto]

I use both. They both have strengths/weaknesses and just set up different attacks I think.

In short, I think the no underhook version is a better pin. I think the underhook version has more submission and transition options.

 

[Thrawn33]

I just take whats there on the far side (90% of my matches won by newaza are a result of kesa or some variation)....as you can see in my av

 

[Blue Streak]

Each has its own uses. Just depends upon what your opponent gives you.

Your opponent shouldn't really be able to strike you from side control either, as part of having side control (at least, as I have always been taught in Judo) is controlling the far arm by hugging it into the spot between your neck and shoulder. If you are lucky you can trap the near arm under your body, as well, rendering it useless. If not the worst you will get is a few elbows to the ribs with little power behind them.

That said, if given the choice, I prefer scarf hold as A) you can put more weight down and really inhibit your opponent's breathing and wear them out, B) when put on right it is extremely difficult to get out of, C) it sets up the arm triangle when your opponent pushes on your face to try and get out, and D) it enables one of my favourite submissions, the name of which I can never remember, but which is basically an Americana using your legs.

 

[Thrawn33]

Getting an underhook on the far side (kuzure kesa gatame) usually allows me to lift the the other guy's shoulders off the mat slightly and apply more pressure on the lungs, making it harder for my opponent to breathe, leading to less resistance and in one case, a tap.

 

[Blue Streak]

Ok, looking back I realise that I misread what the OP was about. TS was asking why one would go from side control into kesa gatame rather than kuzure kesa gatame.

I still prefer kesa gatame, as I feel it is a more secure hold, gives you better submission options, and more transition options.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

I still prefer kesa gatame, as I feel it is a more secure hold,

Agreed.

gives you better submission options,

Disagree, it think the couple there are are fairly easy to block once you know them. And you have to release your control of uke's arm, at least momentarily, to go for them, which opens the way for him to escape behind you.

and more transition options.

Really? I've always found the exact opposite with Kesa Gatame. There aren't high percentage transitions, it's kind of the end of the road. Which ones work for you?

 

[HomerPlata]

When they're just holding my head in that position, unless they're bear-hugging the crap out of it I can sometimes just pop out straight to back - which is obviously not possible if they have the underhook. And yet, whenever I find myself in the opposite situation, I never seem to go for the underhook, just head control. I dunno.

 

[KJGould]

I use both. They both have strengths/weaknesses and just set up different attacks I think.

In short, I think the no underhook version is a better pin. I think the underhook version has more submission and transition options.

Pretty much, though there are plenty of subs from standard head&arm control. There's still a lot of mistakes made with the position by a lot of people that can cause them unecessary problems though. Usually they don't have the straight arm deep enough, or their near knee deep enough, or their weight is too high up.

 

[bjornvil]

I always go for the underhook!

If I end up in regular kesa gatame with just head and arm control I am always worried about getting my back taken (as that's what I do, or try to do whenever I am under in kesa gatame). I always try to get the underhook from there, although I really don't know a good way to do that.

 

[HomerPlata]

I always go for the underhook!

If I end up in regular kesa gatame with just head and arm control I am always worried about getting my back taken (as that's what I do, or try to do whenever I am under in kesa gatame). I always try to get the underhook from there, although I really don't know a good way to do that.

I think once you've got that head-only control, you're stuck there. If you try to get the underhook, you have to take pressure off your partner, and that's the moment they're waiting for so they can pop out and take your back. It always feels too risky to try and go back for the underhook, to me anyway.

 

[SuperSuperRambo]

Depends what you're going for. Particularly in the gi, it's much easier IMO to pin someone with head and arm control rather than with the underhook. However I feel that the underhook gives you more opportunities for submissions and positional transitions. With the traditional scarfhold you keep him there, or go for one of a couple of subs, but it's not the best for moving to other positions and what not. Therefore it's not used as much in BJJ because you are looking to advance position and/or submit rather than hold him there. I don't think the reasoning has as much to do with street defense as much as it has to do with the tactics you're trying to execute.

That said, it's very important to drill the escapes to both positions, because if you are caught there and have someone who's intent on keeping you there, you're gonna be stuck for a long time if your escapes aren't on point.

My preference? I'm doing a judo tournament soon so I'll use the traditional scarf hold if I end up there. Otherwise I'll use what the situation presents. I rarely stay in a single kind of side control for all that long without at least shifting my hips or threatening a submission or something.

 

[randomg1t]

i don't do kesa gatame at all but i always feel like i can wiggle out or reverse them pretty quickly if they don't underhook me.

 

[bagelgod]

I really like Kesa Gatame. Yes, at first, I got my back taken A LOT. But the more you play the position, the more details you pick up, the tighter it gets.

The way I like to play it is hooking the head and grabbing my inner thigh with the head-hooking-arm. Then slide down your inner thigh until you've removed all space.

You've got your standard straight armbar, and leg americana. Once people get hip to you, these are going to be if the guy goofs up. There's the ezekiel choke, or if you don't like the guy, the fist-in-the-throat choke. When the guy hugs your waist, you can hook the head, and hook his elbow (ala heelhook) for a shoulder lock. You've got the step over armbar if he doesn't lock his hands. You've got your arm triangle, and if the guy frames with the not-in-kesa-arm, you can pull it across and wipe your arm over his face to switch to a darce. If he hooks over your leg, there's a knee bar that I hit a good deal. If he slips his head out, you can keep control of his arm, hook a leg, and roll backwards (like you're going into a weird crucifix); once your shoulders hit the mat, you can rotate your legs towards his head, and get a bizarre omoplata. Failing that, you can do a backwards hump roll, and now you have his back. If he guy goes to roll you, if you have his arm secured, you can hump your hips forward, hook a leg, and it's another bizarre omoplata. Finally, if you want a good laugh, you can do the Bas Rutten (you already have the grip on your inner thigh with around his head; now you hook bottom leg, then hook the inside of your other inner thigh, finally bring your knees together to smush him).

If he DOES roll you, or reverses the position somehow, you can keep hold of your Kesa Gatame from bottom. I've been using the basic "Mr. Schembri" position from the latest rolled up with great success. It's much easier to get the shoulder lock from bottom, because people are working their arms rather than trying to hide them. You can also pendulum your top leg to sweep him back into regular Kesa, or if their weight is forward (maybe they're trying to smash you) roll them over the top of you back into kesa. Then there's Nino Schembri's series where he passes the head and hooks the ankle, which is better showed on Rolled Up than I can give it justice.

In summation, I really like Kesa Gatame!

 

[genkisudo69]

My technique is bad without the underhook. Whenever I just wrap his head he always pops out and escapes.

With the underhook I like to attack the armbar on his inside arm by putting my outside foot over his head and trapping his arm/elbow on my hip. There's also a nice americana from there if he tries to prevent my foot from going over his face.

exactly what i do.
one of the favourites subs by GSP.
i always use the underhook, in bjj , never gives your back!

 

[bjornvil]

I think once you've got that head-only control, you're stuck there. If you try to get the underhook, you have to take pressure off your partner, and that's the moment they're waiting for so they can pop out and take your back. It always feels too risky to try and go back for the underhook, to me anyway.

Exactly! I really don't end up in Kesa Gatame that often so I can't remember if I've ever managed to go from regular KG to the one with the underhook.

 

[KJGould]

Some tips

YouTube - Tony Cecchine - Catch Wrestling, Ground Domination 1