Sam Harris - anti-profiling position

jeffk

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Sam has had Juliette Kayyem on his most recent podcast. They discuss a number of things. I liked Kaayem.

One of the things they covered was Harris position on anti-profling: At airports we know we are looking for jihadists. We don't need to worry about 70 year old Amish women. Therefore, we should spend the limited time and resources we have to screen those who could be Muslims or other factors that correlate to someone who could be a jidadist.

I disagree on his position and thought Harris gave the best argument why he should be against it too. Right before discussing his anti-profiling position, he was talking about how it is rational to foresee an irrational response to an action. He said that we are wise to spend more for safety on airport security than on car safety or other things that cause death and harm.

If an airplane goes down, it could cause a lot of fear and panic and cause people to act irrationally. So we pay upfront the costs to prevent the irrational effects.

I think he should consider the same line of thinking when it comes to his anti-profiling position.
He should consider the irrational effects.

First off: I think the security at airports are a joke. If someone wants to get weapons past security it would be very easy. Someone could get a job at Subway or other restaurant in the airport and smuggle stuff in. Or someone could rip open an aluminum can and mold it into a weapon or melt plastic bottles into a weapon. But no, you cannot take nail clippers on your carry on bag. So the security is just theater. It only is going to foil the dumbest of terrorist.

Combined with that factor say TSA said they are going to profile anyone who could be a Muslim. Islamist and jihadists would be energized by this type of policy. They would say look at how we are being persecuted. Moderate Muslims would be justifiably upset that they are being treated differently based solely upon what they might believe. They would give cover to Islamist who rant and rave on the news.


While Harris's position may make sense in theory, in practice it would not be a good policy.



https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-makes-us-safer
 
It's hard to support profiling people you think may or may not be your enemy. The way Japanese Americans were treated during WWII should serve as a reminder of how slippery a slope that is.
 
I support profiling at airports 100%

If you don't want to be profiled, then don't fcuking fly.

Flying is a priviledge Not a right.

Being profiled for using the airport is not like being profiled while driving a car or just walking because the later 2 are essential/close to essential to maintain a normal life in many parts of America. You can live perfectly fine without flying.
 
Definitely profile. Just be sure to include shifty looking 20-50 year old white males in that profile
 
Juliette Kayyem pointed out that profiling is already being done at some level before people get to the security lines. They screen for behavior such as where a person has traveled and she implied if it correlates to where a jihadist might travel that person will be face additional security.

Is there any other case where someone is given extra security screening solely based upon what a person might believe?

 
We are gonna profile white people too right? The IRA has been known to attempt blowing up planes.
 
I support profiling at airports 100%

If you don't want to be profiled, then don't fcuking fly.

Flying is a priviledge Not a right.

Being profiled for using the airport is not like being profiled while driving a car or just walking because the later 2 are essential/close to essential to maintain a normal life in many parts of America. You can live perfectly fine without flying.
I was taking multiple fights every other week for work for three years. It was definitely a necessity for me and the gloval economy is creating even more need for travel for business. If i was getting pulled out of line every time because of how I looked I would be pretty pissed.
 
We are gonna profile white people too right? The IRA has been known to attempt blowing up planes.

Well if we're talking about Sam Harris's view; yes. His view on profiling that he puts forth is that there are some people that very obviously shouldn't be stopped and frisked. His favorite examples are a woman who looks like Betty White and an Amish man. He said that middle aged white men have been successfully recruited for jihadism and therefore should reasonably be stopped.
 
I was taking multiple fights every other week for work for three years. It was definitely a necessity for me and the gloval economy is creating even more need for travel for business. If i was getting pulled out of line every time because of how I looked I would be pretty pissed.
You can take a different job . It's not like using a car to run erands, chores, drive to work etcc.In many parts of America, you really can't function without a car. You can function without flying.
 
He doesn't know what hes talking about with security its about Defense in Depth.
 
It's hard to support profiling people you think may or may not be your enemy. The way Japanese Americans were treated during WWII should serve as a reminder of how slippery a slope that is.

But contrary to this we have the truth aka facts aka statistics.

Let's be nice and say that Muslims account for 85% of terrorist attacks involving planes. Now, it is reasonable to have a breakdown of 85% of the people pulled aside to be muslims. This is conforming to REALITY.

A very important fact that many people with your position have is that there are LIMITED LAW ENFORCEMENT RESOURCES. So let's say that we can scan 1000 people a day, then about 850 of those should be muslims.
Political correctness is dangerous and causing the loss of innocent lives. We have to be smart just like we are when we use scientific facts when we build a huge building we do not want to fall apart.

If you want to be searched less change your religion because your religion is not changing.
 
You can take a different job . It's not like using a car to run erands, chores, drive to work etcc.In many parts of America, you really can't function without a car. You can function without flying.
So I would have to get another job because of how I look and that doesn't sound like discrimination to you?
 
Well if we're talking about Sam Harris's view; yes. His view on profiling that he puts forth is that there are some people that very obviously shouldn't be stopped and frisked. His favorite examples are a woman who looks like Betty White and an Amish man. He said that middle aged white men have been successfully recruited for jihadism and therefore should reasonably be stopped.
And people with strollers, that was tried before.
http://nypost.com/2011/02/25/feds-foil-baby-doll-bomb-plot/

And asians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack

The british
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Reid

Women
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/opinion/when-women-become-terrorists.html?referer=

Kinda seems like security should be looking at everyone.
 
But contrary to this we have the truth aka facts aka statistics.

Let's be nice and say that Muslims account for 85% of terrorist attacks involving planes. Now, it is reasonable to have a breakdown of 85% of the people pulled aside to be muslims. This is conforming to REALITY.

A very important fact that many people with your position have is that there are LIMITED LAW ENFORCEMENT RESOURCES. So let's say that we can scan 1000 people a day, then about 850 of those should be muslims.
Political correctness is dangerous and causing the loss of innocent lives. We have to be smart just like we are when we use scientific facts when we build a huge building we do not want to fall apart.

If you want to be searched less change your religion because your religion is not changing.
Who is saying anything about religion being the cause for them being stopped and checked. Do you know the shit that Sikhs have gone through since then for looking muslim?
 
I support profiling at airports 100%

If you don't want to be profiled, then don't fcuking fly.

Flying is a priviledge Not a right.

Being profiled for using the airport is not like being profiled while driving a car or just walking because the later 2 are essential/close to essential to maintain a normal life in many parts of America. You can live perfectly fine without flying.

I consider being able to travel within the borders of my country a right.

It's not realistic for me to visit family without someone taking a flight. Is that a privilege in your mind?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Talk to me about probability in this context.
 
Definitely profile. Just be sure to include shifty looking 20-50 year old white males in that profile


Not really good examples for your case. 3 look to be examples of Muslim plots and the other one doesn't involve airplanes.
 
Not really good examples for your case. 3 look to be examples of Muslim plots and the other one doesn't involve airplanes.

Exactly none of them were dressed up like the ayatollah of iran. Unless the profile is " people under 70" you arent givibg much of a profile here.
 
Would your enemy then use a race or sex mix that you were not profiling to sneak shit through?
 

No disagreement from me there. I'm more for a random approach. However that randomness can obviously be broken if someone has suspicious travel history or is behaving suspiciously.
 
Harris brought up this video in the podcast. It is Maajid Nawaz exposing these dirtbags. You would think they would be prepared now. Nawaz asks the same questions to a number of guys. But they won't answer.

Nawaz asks: If there is Sharia law here would you support cutting off the hands of thieves and stoning women to death for adultery.

 
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