Ryan Hall: "The jiu-jitsu skill in MMA is low."

[Spazzmaster]

4:09 mark in this recent interview in Iceland, in reply to the question why submissions from guard aren't as common in MMA as they are in grappling competitions.



"The jiu-jitsu skill in MMA is low, for the most part. Obviously, you have guys, your Demian Maias, Gunny (Nelson) in there, Rani Yahya, Roger Gracie - we can name the great jiu-jitsu players in MMA.

But most of the guys just don't have the skill to pull off submissions off their back at a high level. Because the skill of the top guy in his position is far greater than the skill of the bottom guy."

His list of top 5 jiu-jitsu in the UFC:
Gunnar Nelson, Demian Maia, Durinho Burns, Kenny Florian, BJ Penn

Other mentions:
Palhares "It helps to be eating horse meat and also a gorilla of a man."
Imanari and Aoki "phenomenal"
Marcin Held "Not a high level jiu jitsu guy in the traditional sense. But he's had phenomenal success, and he's very, very dangerous in MMA."

 

[Spazzmaster]

Discuss...

 

[BJJ_Rage]

im surprise he didnt mention Jacare when talking about great jiu jitsu players in mma, hes the best representative I think.

I agree with him, "flashy sporty" stuff will be seen in the cage more often as top sporty bjj players make the switch to mma, I also agree that the level of atheltism on the circuit is all time high...

 

[Uchi Mata]

He's right. Of the main disciplines in MMA, I'd argue that BJJ and boxing are the two where there's the greatest divide between pros in those sports and MMA pros.

 

[mataleaos]

im surprise he didnt mention Jacare when talking about great jiu jitsu players in mma, hes the best representative I think.

I agree with him, "flashy sporty" stuff will be seen in the cage more often as top sporty bjj players make the switch to mma, I also agree that the level of atheltism on the circuit is all time high...

You can tell listening to the interview that he's just naming names that pop into his head. He clearly wasn't leaving Jacare off on purpose and if you listen to how the question was asked and how he responded it really seems like he just started naming various people that he thought were good.

I know for me that anytime someone makes one of those top 3 or top 5 lists that I always realize names that I wanted to name afterwards.

 

[rmongler]

He's right. Of the main disciplines in MMA, I'd argue that BJJ and boxing are the two where there's the greatest divide between pros in those sports and MMA pros.

I'll come right out and say it reflects relative importance to a good degree.

*dons hazmat suit*

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'll come right out and say it reflects relative importance to a good degree.

*dons hazmat suit*

I agree. You can win as a BJJ specialist at lower levels, but in the top 10 of the UFC it's not as good a go-to skill set as striking or wrestling + GNP. Mostly because submission attempts don't win rounds, especially from the bottom. You can throw up 10 arm bar attempts but if I punch you once I demonstrated more octagon control and did more damage.

It also reflects the small talent pool of elite BJJ guys. There are a ton of high level wrestlers so if even a small % transition to MMA you've got a lot of dudes with wicked wrestling. If the same % of top BJJ make the jump you have like 15 guys.

 

[SummerStriker]

I found a curve depicting how much effort it takes to get so good in an individual aspect of martial arts.

If you stop training something seriously when you reach the stationary phase of growth and start training something you are weak on, you will continue to expand your skill exponentially in MMA. If you stay focused on one art through the stationary phase to become better than all others at that one thing, you will not grow in other aspects.

The individual combat sports are basically drills for MMA. Submission grappling, wrestling, boxing and kick boxing are in and of themselves, training methods and drills. Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery when you lack all the skill gained during the exponential growth phase in other arts is a waste of time if you are pursuing overall fighting ability.

The fact is that there are not a whole lot of people who have had the time to reach the stationary phase of growth of all the various drills of MMA (combat sports) and have had time to come back to master the one they enjoy the most.

Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery, through the stationary growth phase, when you have not even made it to the stationary phase of boxing, wrestling and kick boxing, would be like focusing on guard sweeps to the point of mastery in BJJ while neglecting growth in your top game, and then wondering why you can't finish people.

 

[mataleaos]

I agree. You can win as a BJJ specialist at lower levels, but in the top 10 of the UFC it's not as good a go-to skill set as striking or wrestling + GNP. Mostly because submission attempts don't win rounds, especially from the bottom. You can throw up 10 arm bar attempts but if I punch you once I demonstrated more octagon control and did more damage.

It also reflects the small talent pool of elite BJJ guys. There are a ton of high level wrestlers so if even a small % transition to MMA you've got a lot of dudes with wicked wrestling. If the same % of top BJJ make the jump you have like 15 guys.

I'll even go one further and say that the work ethic that comes from wrestling is an added benefit. Don't get me wrong, becoming great at bjj takes a ton of effort. But when you have high school or even middle school kids spitting in bottles all day long to cut weight and not allowed to have girlfriends during wrestling season, that's another level of dedication and mental grind that helps prepare for mma later on.

Dave Camarillo had a big discussion after a seminar a couple years ago about how he would have someone do judo or wrestling before bjj to get a certain level of grind and work ethic in them before having them do bjj, which he considered more mellow with the exception of the people training at the very highest levels to win say-the adcc or the mundials.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I found a curve depicting how much effort it takes to get so good in an individual aspect of martial arts.

If you stop training something seriously when you reach the stationary phase of growth and start training something you are weak on, you will continue to expand your skill exponentially in MMA. If you stay focused on one art through the stationary phase to become better than all others at that one thing, you will not grow in other aspects.

The individual combat sports are basically drills for MMA. Submission grappling, wrestling, boxing and kick boxing are in and of themselves, training methods and drills. Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery when you lack all the skill gained during the exponential growth phase in other arts is a waste of time if you are pursuing overall fighting ability.

The fact is that there are not a whole lot of people who have had the time to reach the stationary phase of growth of all the various drills of MMA (combat sports) and have had time to come back to master the one they enjoy the most.

Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery, through the stationary growth phase, when you have not even made it to the stationary phase of boxing, wrestling and kick boxing, would be like focusing on guard sweeps to the point of mastery in BJJ while neglecting growth in your top game, and then wondering why you can't finish people.

But does it really work that way? If you're far enough ahead of people in one area of the game and you can force the fight into that realm as Ryan has done in his past two fights on TUF, you're going to win. If I'm pretty good at boxing, wrestling, and BJJ but not great at any of them there might not be any area where I'm better than my opponent. Whereas if I'm an adequate wrestler and boxer, good enough not to get dominated in those areas but I'm also great at BJJ and can force my opponent into a grappling match I'm going to beat him. At the top level yeah, everyone is good at everything but below that level there's a lot to be said for a dominant specialty.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I'll even go one further and say that the work ethic that comes from wrestling is an added benefit. Don't get me wrong, becoming great at bjj takes a ton of effort. But when you have high school or even middle school kids spitting in bottles all day long to cut weight and not allowed to have girlfriends during wrestling season, that's another level of dedication and mental grind that helps prepare for mma later on.

Dave Camarillo had a big discussion after a seminar a couple years ago about how he would have someone do judo or wrestling before bjj to get a certain level of grind and work ethic in them before having them do bjj, which he considered more mellow with the exception of the people training at the very highest levels to win say-the adcc or the mundials.

That's true for lower level BJJ guys, but for someone like Ryan I'm willing to bet when he was at TLI and prepping for ADCC he trained as hard as any wrestler. And we're only talking about elite BJJ guys here. I don't think any elite BJJ guy lacks for mental toughness created by hard training.

 

[EndlessCritic]

I found a curve depicting how much effort it takes to get so good in an individual aspect of martial arts.

If you stop training something seriously when you reach the stationary phase of growth and start training something you are weak on, you will continue to expand your skill exponentially in MMA. If you stay focused on one art through the stationary phase to become better than all others at that one thing, you will not grow in other aspects.

The individual combat sports are basically drills for MMA. Submission grappling, wrestling, boxing and kick boxing are in and of themselves, training methods and drills. Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery when you lack all the skill gained during the exponential growth phase in other arts is a waste of time if you are pursuing overall fighting ability.

The fact is that there are not a whole lot of people who have had the time to reach the stationary phase of growth of all the various drills of MMA (combat sports) and have had time to come back to master the one they enjoy the most.

Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery, through the stationary growth phase, when you have not even made it to the stationary phase of boxing, wrestling and kick boxing, would be like focusing on guard sweeps to the point of mastery in BJJ while neglecting growth in your top game, and then wondering why you can't finish people.

There is a lot of truth here, however I reject that most fighters have hit the stationary phase in more than one aspect of MMA. Most fighters have massive holes in their games.

 

[yuba84]

I think this guy will win TUF based on Jiu-Jitsu alone.

 

[mataleaos]

That's true for lower level BJJ guys, but for someone like Ryan I'm willing to bet when he was at TLI and prepping for ADCC he trained as hard as any wrestler. And we're only talking about elite BJJ guys here. I don't think any elite BJJ guy lacks for mental toughness created by hard training.

Oh totally. I must have missed that part. I know Ryan Hall trains like a machine and elite bjj guys are ridiculously tough and train hard.

 

[SummerStriker]

But does it really work that way? If you're far enough ahead of people in one area of the game and you can force the fight into that realm as Ryan has done in his past two fights on TUF, you're going to win. If I'm pretty good at boxing, wrestling, and BJJ but not great at any of them there might not be any area where I'm better than my opponent. Whereas if I'm an adequate wrestler and boxer, good enough not to get dominated in those areas but I'm also great at BJJ and can force my opponent into a grappling match I'm going to beat him. At the top level yeah, everyone is good at everything but below that level there's a lot to be said for a dominant specialty.

This is just coming from my personal experience sparring with people.

Some people can force a fight into a certain range and keep it there, sure. I think that there are an awful lot of guys who can sprawl on wrestlers without themselves being good wrestlers, guys who can clinch and takedown boxers without being hurt, without themselves being good boxers, who can kick at kick boxers by threatening with hands or wrestling, or who can perform throws and submissions without being good at BJJ or Judo by first striking their opponent.

I am not talking about big name gyms where the stars train, but when it comes to amateur MMA gyms, by and large they all have the same coaching problem.

Their students flow from position to position at the will of their opponents. When they spar one another, they allow chance to direct them lazily through each range, hoping to get an edge by doing that one thing better than their opponent. This is the negative byproduct of training several things at once without someone taking time to help you put it together, which almost doesn't exist.

That way of fighting lends itself to being overcome by experts. If they get taken down by a BJJ expert who starts doing BJJ moves on them, they start rolling. If they get into a clinch with a judoka, they try to throw the guy. They get punched at, they try and parry and hit back.

In my mind, the goal is to do a lot of small gloved sparring with MMA rules, light contact, with strangers, and develop a feel for the way people go about things. Not only that, but to start this early in your training while you are still humble and can accept that you will find people better than you at different aspects. Then you get trained by your coach how to overcome each kind of person.

Setting up throws with clinch strikes
Threatening to pummel to make opportunities to break clinches
Standing up from bottom positions (which is at least trained a lot)
Threatening takedowns to set up power punching
Use hands to establish fear so that you can kick during flinches
Kicking during clinch breaks
Boxing footwork and boxing level changes to make room for takedown defense against better wrestlers
Striking strategies that limit clinching including short combos with defensive footwork and hiding behind the jab on escapes

And on and on - interdisciplinary stuff

As it is now, not to repeat myself too much, people walk at each other throwing too long combos and then submit to the will to grapple after first contact by the person losing the striking contest, then seeing what happens, all while being praised for flowing.

 

[SummerStriker]

There is a lot of truth here, however I reject that most fighters have hit the stationary phase in more than one aspect of MMA. Most fighters have massive holes in their games.

I'm with you. I might have written it wrong. My point is that most have not reached the stationary phase in hardly anything and spend too much time grinding away at something they have practically mastered. It takes a really long time to reach the stationary phase in anything, but switching to other training methods when you have is the best way to improve in MMA UNTIL you have done so in each major art.

 

[Spoonman7]

I agree with Ryan, surprised he overlooked Jacare as well, but Jacare is also knocking guys out now so he may have forgot about it. very interested to see where Ryan's career goes.

 

[trustdoesntrust]

I found a curve depicting how much effort it takes to get so good in an individual aspect of martial arts.

If you stop training something seriously when you reach the stationary phase of growth and start training something you are weak on, you will continue to expand your skill exponentially in MMA. If you stay focused on one art through the stationary phase to become better than all others at that one thing, you will not grow in other aspects.

The individual combat sports are basically drills for MMA. Submission grappling, wrestling, boxing and kick boxing are in and of themselves, training methods and drills. Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery when you lack all the skill gained during the exponential growth phase in other arts is a waste of time if you are pursuing overall fighting ability.

The fact is that there are not a whole lot of people who have had the time to reach the stationary phase of growth of all the various drills of MMA (combat sports) and have had time to come back to master the one they enjoy the most.

Focusing on BJJ to the point of mastery, through the stationary growth phase, when you have not even made it to the stationary phase of boxing, wrestling and kick boxing, would be like focusing on guard sweeps to the point of mastery in BJJ while neglecting growth in your top game, and then wondering why you can't finish people.

I think this leaves out the primary strategic principle underlying high-level MMA, which is to master one aspect of the game and then develop secondary aspects in a manner that makes the mastered aspect undefendable. Anderson Silva is the classic example of this with his ring theatrics and stalling ground game forcing opponents to engage in his counter-striking, but I think you can see it as far back as Royce Gracie's push kicks forcing opponents to engage him in the clinch, and certainly with Ronda Rousey's striking targeting the common defenses to her judo. So I think a proper graphic would swap out "Stationary growth" with "Assimilation Phase," which is the period where the athlete adopts a regiment of other skills under the generalship of the master skill.

 

[TRYHARD 2001]

I remember the first time I ever saw Hall rolling. It was against Bendo. He tapped him in short order. I was impressed and wondered who this guy was and whether he'd eventually make the jump to MMA.

I don't watch TUF any more, but the fact that he's in this season has me intrigued. Who else is on this season that's any good?

 

[biscuitsbrah]

Surprised to see Kenny Florian off the top of his head. I wasnt aware he was a super good bjj guy