Russian Tie Up Throw and Submission Options

[BJJJoe]

 

[Gorbag]

The russian tie and the follow up as shown in this video is a good example how a technique that make sense in one grappling style does not transfer "logically" into diciplines with other rules. Why complicate stuff that is really easy in the first place since you already have the arm streched out, why not armlock him directly? Just put bodyweight over elbow and bring him down, game over, waki-gatame anyone?

 

[Uchi Mata]

The russian tie and the follow up as shown in this video is a good example how a technique that make sense in one grappling style does not transfer "logically" into diciplines with other rules. Why complicate stuff that is really easy in the first place since you already have the arm streched out, why not armlock him directly? Just put bodyweight over elbow and bring him down, game over, waki-gatame anyone?

Because it's hard to hit waki gatame consistently (and safely), and the Russian is a good controlling tie with many throwing options? I use it a lot in Judo, wrestling, and BJJ with success.

 

[Gorbag]

Because it's hard to hit waki gatame consistently (and safely), and the Russian is a good controlling tie with many throwing options? I use it a lot in Judo, wrestling, and BJJ with success.

If you have streched out the arm like in the video then almost all the job is already done, no need to wreck the arm standing, just put a firm pressure so he goes down and follow after and submit him on the ground. Few people will let their arm get stretched out like that in judo, if you can get it, why complicate stuff?

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you have streched out the arm like in the video then almost all the job is already done, no need to wreck the arm standing, just put a firm pressure so he goes down and follow after and submit him on the ground. Few people will let their arm get stretched out like that in judo, if you can get it, why complicate stuff?

Usually when getting into the Russian the arm isn't straight. You're getting a cross grip, breaking the grip, and armdragging to get a second grip either at the armpit or over the back. Uke's arm tends to be in a curl position, not straight. If someone is stiff arming you perhaps you could hit a slow controlled waki, but that's not the normal case when you're trying to set up the 2-1.

 

[Gorbag]

Usually when getting into the Russian the arm isn't straight. You're getting a cross grip, breaking the grip, and armdragging to get a second grip either at the armpit or over the back. Uke's arm tends to be in a curl position, not straight. If someone is stiff arming you perhaps you could hit a slow controlled waki, but that's not the normal case when you're trying to set up the 2-1.

It depends on the angle of his arm, if its far from straigthened out, then you can block his legs and wreck it standing instead. If the arm is similar to what is shown in the video, then just force him gently down and submit him! In judo its illegal to throw to the ground with waki gatame, but for some strange reason you can still wreck the arm standing.

 

[Uchi Mata]

If you want to see how it can be used in high level Judo, watch Naohisa Takato. He uses it all the time for his kata guruma.

 

[Gorbag]

If you want to see how it can be used in high level Judo, watch Naohisa Takato. He uses it all the time for his kata guruma.

Yes, and I have used the russian tie and throwed with uchi-mata and sumi gaeshi myself, depending of posture and reaction patterns, but I have also used Waki gatame with very good results. Waki gatame is a simpler and more "logical" solution and works well in combination with throws like sumi gaeshi also.

My comment to the video is that the sequence seem complicated if you want to armlock him in the first place, try to go for that first is what I would recommend.

Personally I have for a long time tried to simplify grappling moves and sequences, less that can go wrong and more useful for competition or randori in my experience...

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I use and teach russian tie a lot.
My concerns with the technique, shown in the video:

1. While trying to break the grip, dont punch out. Instead, punch in, because otherwise you are moving yourself in a dangerous position, where both of your hands are busy with your opponent's grip, making it easy for him to grip with his free hand. A good grip fighter wouldnt let go that easy and if he happens to be good with suplex, you will be in a lot of trouble- all he needs to do is grab your belt and arch back with grips on the belt and collar.

2. If you are on top of his shoulder, dont voluntary give up the top position by diving like that- the opponent can stack your attempt quite easy. Instead, you could drop him with leg trips or by simply continuosly driving him to the ground, by applying pressure on the shoulder.

3. Shoulder pressure- the moment you lose it, you will lose the position. I think the partner in white in this video was very nice and let the instructor show the move, but in reality, I doubt he felt any pressure on his shoulder.

4. If someone can get to the position in 1:25, Id suggest just to shoot in for ankle pick.

Its a nice video, but I think they should practice this position a bit more with resisting partners...

 

[selfcritical]

If you have streched out the arm like in the video then almost all the job is already done, no need to wreck the arm standing, just put a firm pressure so he goes down and follow after and submit him on the ground. Few people will let their arm get stretched out like that in judo, if you can get it, why complicate stuff?

When executed dynamically, Uke will almost certainly attempt to withdraw their arm right away. You may be able to transition back into Waki Gatame, but stabilizing in a high percentage grip that's worked at all levels of competition is a great way to be able to set up a variety of attacks.

I forget, don't the latest rule changes restrict the use of the Russian in some way?

 

[Gorbag]

When executed dynamically, Uke will almost certainly attempt to withdraw their arm right away. You may be able to transition back into Waki Gatame, but stabilizing in a high percentage grip that's worked at all levels of competition is a great way to be able to set up a variety of attacks.

I forget, don't the latest rule changes restrict the use of the Russian in some way?

I think the rules has been the same for a long time that grip on one side must be followed with immediately attack, you cannot hold on the same side without attacking.

Personally my first and safest choice if I can get the russian tie is always waki gatame then I usually follow up with sumi gaeshi or osoto otoshi to the opposite side with the same grip if he resist the arm lock. Uke will often try to roll out of the arm lock if taken down, so its important to control his upper back on the way down

 

[jack36767]

I use and teach russian tie a lot.
My concerns with the technique, shown in the video:

1. While trying to break the grip, dont punch out. Instead, punch in, because otherwise you are moving yourself in a dangerous position, where both of your hands are busy with your opponent's grip, making it easy for him to grip with his free hand. A good grip fighter wouldnt let go that easy and if he happens to be good with suplex, you will be in a lot of trouble- all he needs to do is grab your belt and arch back with grips on the belt and collar.

2. If you are on top of his shoulder, dont voluntary give up the top position by diving like that- the opponent can stack your attempt quite easy. Instead, you could drop him with leg trips or by simply continuosly driving him to the ground, by applying pressure on the shoulder.

3. Shoulder pressure- the moment you lose it, you will lose the position. I think the partner in white in this video was very nice and let the instructor show the move, but in reality, I doubt he felt any pressure on his shoulder.

4. If someone can get to the position in 1:25, Id suggest just to shoot in for ankle pick.

Its a nice video, but I think they should practice this position a bit more with resisting partners...

How much does the gi change your options from nogi? (in bjj with leg attacks allowed). When training in the gi I'm usually so much better on my feet than my training partners I usually get what I want with the Russian or any other tie

And just a technique preference question lol. What type of grip do you prefer, I've been starting to prefer and teach it with both hands above the elbow rather than at the armpit and wrist

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

How much does the gi change your options from nogi? (in bjj with leg attacks allowed). When training in the gi I'm usually so much better on my feet than my training partners I usually get what I want with the Russian or any other tie

And just a technique preference question lol. What type of grip do you prefer, I've been starting to prefer and teach it with both hands above the elbow rather than at the armpit and wrist

Gi gives traction, so its a lot easier to trap and secure the arm.
The belt opens huge variety of grip position, hence better control, attack and defence wise.
As for preference, russian tie is just a starting point of a sequence for throw-pin-submission, from where Id teach forward, backwards, sideways, upper and lower body throws with their possible outcome and follow up groundwork work. So, Im happy with pretty much anything, that gives me a good shoulder pressure.
I like reaching around the back, so yes, both hands on upper arm would be great, also because the arm drag is right there for taking the back or change levels and shoot in.
I also do scissor takedowns or leglocks rolls from there, but that would be mainly for sambo

 

[rmongler]

I've seen guys do a kind of shoulder crank arm spin with the 2-on-1, where you fold it in with a sorta double wrist lockish grip first.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I've seen guys do a kind of shoulder crank arm spin with the 2-on-1, where you fold it in with a sorta double wrist lockish grip first.

Possible, especially when opponent bents his arm defending.
Figure 4 the arm, like for Kimura from the same side and spin inside, then arch out.
If you manage to trap his arm under your armpit, he will make a big BOOM.
If not, you can force him to the ground, but in some rule sets its a banned move, since you will be applying standing armlock and with fast spin, most probably wont be able to control the amount of force you are applying and will cause injury.

 

[Gorbag]

I've seen guys do a kind of shoulder crank arm spin with the 2-on-1, where you fold it in with a sorta double wrist lockish grip first.

With wristgrip you can grip sleeve, lapel or hook overarm and apply ude gaeshi.

 

[TehGwarch]

I prefer this style for no-gi vs attacking the legs.

Instead of shoving the arm through his legs you figure four the arm, shove it into his chest and roll to do the same throw.

 

[jack36767]

Possible, especially when opponent bents his arm defending.
Figure 4 the arm, like for Kimura from the same side and spin inside, then arch out.
If you manage to trap his arm under your armpit, he will make a big BOOM.
If not, you can force him to the ground, but in some rule sets its a banned move, since you will be applying standing armlock and with fast spin, most probably wont be able to control the amount of force you are applying and will cause injury.

My high school coach hit this in the state finals for 5 because his opponent was scared of his lefty headlock . He taught us to push their hand into their sternum as we spun under to keep it "legal" and not hurt our partners

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

My high school coach hit this in the state finals for 5 because his opponent was scared of his lefty headlock . He taught us to push their hand into their sternum as we spun under to keep it "legal" and not hurt our partners

A lot better option.
I have seen people doing the throw with a shoulder lock on purpose and its nasty.
There is a beautiful 2 on 1 suplex variation, where you just RNC your opponents shoulder and arch right back. Almost 95% injury guarantee for your opponent. .
I always just show it to students, so they are aware of its existence. But I never teach it.