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Russia/Ukraine Megathread V6

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hitcher said:
Zelensky is not a good guy, neither is Putin though.



Even the EU acknowledged that Georgia started, although Russia may have done some provocation.
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"May have?"

C'mon man, you know how that went. Russia kept amassing troops on the Georgian border. They gave little jabs, did everything possible to coax the slightest response.

I gave this analogy before, but it's akin to a bully cornering a smaller kid and flexing on him, jumping at him, etc just to make him flinch. And when the smaller kid feebly puts his hand out to get a little space between the two and touches the bully, he responds by pummeling the kid into the dirt and crippling him. And then saying "He touched me first, self defense!"
 
Yotsuya said:
1939 Soviet Union made deal with Nazi Germany and invaded neutral Finland. There's no way you can dispute that. As usual your arguments are as shitty as they come.
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The only problem here is that Poland as a state was already non-existent when Soviets crossed the border:
- September, 1st: German and Slovakian forces crossed the Polish border.
- September, 1st: Polish President left Warsaw.
- September, 5th: Polish government left.
- September, 7th: minister of defence did the same.
- September, 17th: Polish government transferred to Romania.

On September, 17th Soviets declared:
“The Polish state and its government actually ceased to exist. Thus, the treaties concluded between the USSR and Poland ceased to be valid. Left to its own devices and left without leadership, Poland turned into a convenient field for all sorts of accidents and surprises that could pose a threat to the USSR. Therefore, having hitherto been neutral, the Soviet government cannot be more neutral about these facts, as well as about the defenseless position of the Ukrainian and Belarusian population. In view of this situation, the Soviet government ordered the High Command of the Red Army to order the troops to cross the border and take under their protection the lives and property of the population of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine.“

Seems pretty legit to me :D.
 
ViD said:
Absolutely, Chechen terrorists attacked Russia in 1999 even after it signed a pathetic peace treaty in 1996. The city had to be taken.
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Aren't the Chechen apartment bombings widely considered to be a false flag operation?
 
Captain Herb said:
So let's think about that for a second.

Poland establishes a peace keeping force in Western Ukraine.
Russia engages the peacekeepers who respond in kind.
Russia uses a tactical nuke against Polish or Ukrainian forces.
NATO launches a tactical nuke in a retaliatory strike against Russian forces in Ukraine.
Putin ups the ante and fires off a larger nuke at a military base in Europe.
US takes out one of their own on Russian soil.
Putin launches a full-scale nuclear strike against the US and western countries.
4 minutes after Putin pushes the button, A full scale retaliation is launched by the US and the West.
Who knows how many Russian missiles find their mark, but one thing we do know is that Russian civilization will be wiped off of this earth forever.

Because Putin wanted Ukraine for himself. Is that really worth it to you?
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I’m the wrong person to ask this question, comrade. I’m just your average Ivan from Blackbutt village, working on two jobs for 18 hours a day to feed my wife and 4 children. Not the man who will push the big red button.
 
dragonsfly said:
It is not exactly fairytale theory.. The fleets will be unharmed but the US has something called ''Second strike capability'' with nuclear subs and other nuclear assets they have located in allied countries they will respond but the damage at that point is done. Russia will eat a dozens but not nearly as many as the US hence always the initiative is with he who throws the first punch period if the US was the one who lands first punch they could end Russia period
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To put this in MMA terms, it's like a guy that brags about how easily he's going to manhandle his opponent, then the bell rings and within minutes he's on the mat unconscious. {<shrug}
 
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Dexter said:
The only problem here is that Poland as a state was already non-existent when Soviets crossed the border:
- September, 1st: German and Slovakian forces crossed the Polish border.
- September, 1st: Polish President left Warsaw.
- September, 5th: Polish government left.
- September, 7th: minister of defence did the same.
- September, 17th: Polish government transferred to Romania.

On September, 17th Soviets declared:
“The Polish state and its government actually ceased to exist. Thus, the treaties concluded between the USSR and Poland ceased to be valid. Left to its own devices and left without leadership, Poland turned into a convenient field for all sorts of accidents and surprises that could pose a threat to the USSR. Therefore, having hitherto been neutral, the Soviet government cannot be more neutral about these facts, as well as about the defenseless position of the Ukrainian and Belarusian population. In view of this situation, the Soviet government ordered the High Command of the Red Army to order the troops to cross the border and take under their protection the lives and property of the population of Western Belarus and Western Ukraine.“

Seems pretty legit to me :D.
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Honestly worst dodge I've ever seen in internet.
 
Hellowhosthat said:
Aren't the Chechen apartment bombings widely considered to be a false flag operation?
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It was not “apartment bombing”, it was the full-scale invasion by Chechen and other Islamist radicals into the Dagestan republic of Russian Federation which caused the counter-offensive.
 
Dexter said:
It was not “apartment bombing”, it was the full-scale invasion by Chechen and other Islamist radicals into the Dagestan republic of Russian Federation which caused the counter-offensive.
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My understanding of it is that Putin wanted to invade because of that but the apartment bombings were what got popular support for the invasion.
 
Yotsuya said:
Russia has a great tradition of dissidents. Often I just lash out word "Russia"/"Russian" when mean the regime or Russian agressively nationalistic mindset. It's not fair.
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100% true. If you look at Russian history so many of Russia's great thinkers, artists, poets, writers, political figures have been victims of repression in one way or another.

Looking at literature alone:
  • Pushkin, the most famous and beloved poet, arguably the founder of modern Russian literature was a friend of revolutionaries and was exiled by the tsar.
  • Lermontov, the most important Russian poet after Alexander Pushkin's death in 1837 and the greatest figure in Russian Romanticism, was exiled twice.
  • Pasternak, was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1958, an event that enraged the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which forced him to decline the prize. He and his family would be harassed until his death.
  • Solzhenitsyn, awarded the 1970 Nobel Prize in Literature, was an outspoken critic of communism and helped to raise global awareness of political repression in the Soviet Union (USSR), in particular the Gulag, where he was imprisoned for 8 years.
  • Bunin, the first Russian writer awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature, had to emigrate to save his life.
  • Brodsky, another Nobel Prize laureate, ran afoul of Soviet authorities and was expelled from the Soviet Union in 1972.
This is the horror of being born in Russia - it bares amazing fruit sometimes but overall it never fully dragged its way out of the dark ages, with continuously reoccurring tyrannical governments, oppressive internal policing and a general political apathy of the population.
 
TheGreatA said:
UK declared war on Finland so I don't think there were too many concerns about alienating them.

The real war between Finland and Russia wasn't the Winter War, anyway, even if it's the one that people most often talk about. It was just a minor skirmish which measured each other's potential. The "continuation war" was of a much larger scale and the Red Army was much more prepared at that time, kicking Nazi ass all over Europe by 1944. Even so, their 500,000 man strong attack, the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk offensive, was halted in the battles in the Karelian Isthmus.

This was quite frankly, a god-tier feat by Finland and will probably never be repeated in history. This was the Red Army at its absolute peak potential, annihilating the Nazi threat, wiping out the Japanese army within days, yet Finland stopped them to a halt. It befuddles me why military historians continue to talk about the Winter War when it was really nothing by comparison.
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Yeah, for some reason the Continuation war is always over-looked by historians. Not very informative by Soviet historians either. Do you have any good books translated from Finnish into English about that period? Would like to read if any exists, but can’t read in Finnish.
 
Dexter said:
I’m the wrong person to ask this question, comrade. I’m just your average Ivan from Blackbutt village, working on two jobs for 18 hours a day to feed my wife and 4 children. Not the man who will push the big red button.
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I understand, no one wants to think about it. It's easier just to trust that your leaders will make the right decisions, although the recent track record so far is not good. Keep up the good work, don't think too much, don't criticize, don't voice your opinion, hope for the best.
 
Dexter said:
Yeah, for some reason the Continuation war is always over-looked by historians. Not very informative by Soviet historians either. Do you have any good books translated from Finnish into English about that period? Would like to read if any exists, but can’t read in Finnish.
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Don't know how good of a book this is, but you can read some of it for free on Google. Seems to cover most of it.

https://books.google.fi/books?id=zb...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
 
Hellowhosthat said:
My understanding of it is that Putin wanted to invade because of that but the apartment bombings were what got popular support for the invasion.
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The war started on August, 7th, 1999 when Shamil Basaev and his subordinates invaded Dagestan (Russian Federation) from the territory of then-independent Chechnya. After he was kicked-out, counter-terrorism operation continued on Chechen side of the border till the end of February of 2000. That was the end of active military operation phase and the beginning of the counter-insurgency part inside Chechnya.
Officially, the war ended in April of 2009, with the abolition of CTO regime on Chechen territory.
 
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