Running the 400 m and 800 m

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Hey guys,

I feel like both these disciplines could be a great supplement for any full contact sport. I also used to be a fast running kid, and feel like both disciplines could be more fun to me than jogging.

So I decided to give it a shot. Nothing fancy. Just go to the track, which is next to my house (and surrounded by forests, nice air), and time myself. Just go once per week with the goal of improving my PR.

So my questions to you guys:
- Anybody doing any of these disciplines ?

- I want to do both the 400 m and the 800 m. I feel like they could compliment eachother greatly. Can you see any counter-indication to doing both ?

- Can you train both on the same day ?

- What type of benchmark should I be looking at ?

- I am planning on keeping it very simple:

1) Get to the track, jog 10 mn to get sh!t started, dynamic stretch for 5 mn.
2) Then : run 3 times the 400 m (with a couple of minutes rest in between)
3) Then : run 3 times the 800 m (also with a couple of minutes rest in between)
4) Then stretch 5 mn.

All in all, i'm in out of the track in 45 mn - 1 hour.

So what do you guys say ?

Txs in advance !

 

[dittohead84]

Well you've picked the hardest combination I'll give you that. 400m on its own is a killer, and its classed as a sprint even though you're not flat out all the way. 800m you're starting into the middle distances. I'd go with 2's and 4's but thats just me

Also it may look easy in writing but after the second 400m run you'll be fucked, that is if you're doing a good pace. I dabbled in the 400m when I was younger, never really trained for it just was kinda fast and playing soccer had my endurance up at the time, ran 53 something nothing special but decent for a 15 year old

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

Well you've picked the hardest combination I'll give you that. 400m on its own is a killer, and its classed as a sprint even though you're not flat out all the way. 800m you're starting into the middle distances. I'd go with 2's and 4's but thats just me
Also it may look easy in writing but after the second 400m run you'll be fucked, that is if you're doing a good pace. I dabbled in the 400m when I was younger, never really trained for it just was kinda fast and playing soccer had my endurance up at the time, ran 53 something nothing special but decent for a 15 year old

Txs, it's precisely for responses like that that I posted, for a reality check. Maybe what I posted is not realist, if I want to beat my PR every time and run at a decent pace.

By 2's and 4's I assume you mean 200 m and 400 m ? Why would that be better that 400 & 800 ?

EDIT : Also, I just googled the world record in the 400, it is 43' something. By that account isn't 53' an extremely good time for a casual athlete ?

 

[senri]

Hey guys,

I feel like both these disciplines could be a great supplement for any full contact sport. I also used to be a fast running kid, and feel like both disciplines could be more fun to me than jogging.

So I decided to give it a shot. Nothing fancy. Just go to the track, which is next to my house (and surrounded by forests, nice air), and time myself. Just go once per week with the goal of improving my PR.

So my questions to you guys:
- Anybody doing any of these disciplines ?

- I want to do both the 400 m and the 800 m. I feel like they could compliment each other greatly. Can you see any counter-indication to doing both ?

- Can you train both on the same day ?

- What type of benchmark should I be looking at ?

- I am planning on keeping it very simple:

1) Get to the track, jog 10 mn to get sh!t started, dynamic stretch for 5 mn.
2) Then : run 3 times the 400 m (with a couple of minutes rest in between)
3) Then : run 3 times the 800 m (also with a couple of minutes rest in between)
4) Then stretch 5 mn.

All in all, i'm in out of the track in 45 mn - 1 hour.

So what do you guys say ?

Txs in advance !

400m is still considered a sprint, it is also the toughest of the sprints requiring you to have a very good developed speed endurance and strategy to pace yourself to your bodies strengths. With that being said 800m is the beginning of the mid distance events, and it only indirectly improves 400m through endurance, the sprint aspect of it will not improve, you will only be a little more explosive in the fights then if you did not train it at all, all it will make you do is improve your work capacity to allow you to be more active in an anaerobic state for a certain period of time.

your training template that you decided to work with will just improve your endurance not your anaerobic capacity, you resting a few minutes for 400 and 800m will get you running at a slow pace not improving your speed at all. Essentially you will improve a little bit but you will plateau quickly and your improvement will merely be endurance in nature. 400m reps are meant to be rested in the 20-30+ minutes for optimal stimulus. 800m you can play around with it since it is mid-distance in general. You can do reps and rest 20 minutes for each, before even running the 800m you can do olympic lifts which would be better for your goals anyway.

Doing both distance events like you want to do is not optimal, if you do complete the workout you posted it just means you were not running fast enough for each distance instead just running at a jog or run pace itself. Then you might as well just run laps.

 

[DanteAli]

I'd advise you to look up Lydiard's methods and other running resources. I'm far from an expert, but am around a few guys who ran in college/still train, and running actual 400m/800m at speed shouldn't figure into your training for a while yet.

Running isn't like weight training; while you squat to get better at the squat, you don't necessarily run 400m to get better at the 400m. Even though 400m is a sprint and not distance running, starting with building your aerobic base is still the best avenue. A few months of distance running and then transitioning into a more strength/anaerobic phase should be your general blueprint.

A reasonable synopsis of Lydiard's methods:
Training the Lydiard Way: 28 Weeks to a PR | Running Times Magazine

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

400m is still considered a sprint, it is also the toughest of the sprints requiring you to have a very good developed speed endurance and strategy to pace yourself to your bodies strengths. With that being said 800m is the beginning of the mid distance events, and it only indirectly improves 400m through endurance, the sprint aspect of it will not improve, you will only be a little more explosive in the fights then if you did not train it at all, all it will make you do is improve your work capacity to allow you to be more active in an anaerobic state for a certain period of time.

your training template that you decided to work with will just improve your endurance not your anaerobic capacity, you resting a few minutes for 400 and 800m will get you running at a slow pace not improving your speed at all. Essentially you will improve a little bit but you will plateau quickly and your improvement will merely be endurance in nature. 400m reps are meant to be rested in the 20-30+ minutes for optimal stimulus. 800m you can play around with it since it is mid-distance in general. You can do reps and rest 20 minutes for each, before even running the 800m you can do olympic lifts which would be better for your goals anyway.

Doing both distance events like you want to do is not optimal, if you do complete the workout you posted it just means you were not running fast enough for each distance instead just running at a jog or run pace itself. Then you might as well just run laps.

Thank you for this post. Which seems to confirm that my idea of a template was way off.

The reason I would like to train and combine 800 and 400 is because well, first of all, they look like a blast to do, but also because they seem to me like the types of run that will mimic the best the cardio qualities of a round of combats sports, be it judo or kick boxing.

So I should be resting 20-30 mn + between 400 m reps. What do you recommend I should do in the mean time ?

 

[LegioTitan]

If memory serves there was a great thread with lots of TF/Sprinting resources on the forum. I'd just link you but I can't remember the title at all.

I think GiJoe posted in it a bit so perhaps he knows.

 

[dannysmith]

I do 400m sprints for rugby, and they work like a charm. I'll take 400's over 800's for rugby purposes, but 800's over 400's for soccer.

 

[ssdd]

53 seconds would have qualified you for later heats in regional competition and probably won you a bunch of one on one meets here, so thats pretty fucking fast, but I think the state and regional winners were 48/49seconds.

I used to run the 800, they were maybe the hardest ~2min segments of my life, but as has been said we never really ran the 800 to train for the 800. Both events are more of a test than a training tool.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

400m is still considered a sprint, it is also the toughest of the sprints requiring you to have a very good developed speed endurance and strategy to pace yourself to your bodies strengths. With that being said 800m is the beginning of the mid distance events, and it only indirectly improves 400m through endurance, the sprint aspect of it will not improve, you will only be a little more explosive in the fights then if you did not train it at all, all it will make you do is improve your work capacity to allow you to be more active in an anaerobic state for a certain period of time.

your training template that you decided to work with will just improve your endurance not your anaerobic capacity, you resting a few minutes for 400 and 800m will get you running at a slow pace not improving your speed at all. Essentially you will improve a little bit but you will plateau quickly and your improvement will merely be endurance in nature. 400m reps are meant to be rested in the 20-30+ minutes for optimal stimulus. 800m you can play around with it since it is mid-distance in general. You can do reps and rest 20 minutes for each, before even running the 800m you can do olympic lifts which would be better for your goals anyway.

Doing both distance events like you want to do is not optimal, if you do complete the workout you posted it just means you were not running fast enough for each distance instead just running at a jog or run pace itself. Then you might as well just run laps.

I was under the impression that the 800 m had a significant anaerobic component ?

 

[MA77A]

I ran both the 4 and 8 in high school, I'm a junior now in college so a bit past my prime lol but from my experience there I would suggest training 5 days a week, 2 of those on the track. We used to do a type of pyramid 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 6 - 4 -2, and rest whatever you run, so sprint 200, light jog 200, sprint 400, light jog 400, and so on. The other 3 days anywhere from 2-5 miles but not on the track - I prefer parks over the monotony of a track any day.

Whatever you do, once a week is not enough to see real progress. Doing simple workouts like that brought me from a :59 400m to sub :51 three years later. Keep in mind that I didn't run year round, only during track season but I was pretty happy with my progress.

 

[Tosa]

I think you could get a better answer by explaining exactly what you want to get out of the track work. Conditioning, (and of what sort), or explosiveness, muscular endurance, speed endurance? Also, what does your other training consist of?

 

[dittohead84]

Txs, it's precisely for responses like that that I posted, for a reality check. Maybe what I posted is not realist, if I want to beat my PR every time and run at a decent pace.

By 2's and 4's I assume you mean 200 m and 400 m ? Why would that be better that 400 & 800 ?

EDIT : Also, I just googled the world record in the 400, it is 43' something. By that account isn't 53' an extremely good time for a casual athlete ?

Yeah 200 and 400. I just couldnt do 800's. I was never one for long distances though and think 400's mix in endurance while still keepin the speed there. Yeah I suppose it was a decent time, 53.5 though. I competed in a few different events as well with the long jump and javelin. Always had a bit of speed and I did light training for the 400 that year, mainly just a few 200m sprints in a session. Was a jack of all trades master of none. Was 10 years away from competing, went back to the Javelin last year and training hard for it. Still think I have a few years left in me

 

[senri]

I was under the impression that the 800 m had a significant anaerobic component ?

no very little in comparison to whats required by the shorter sprints.

 

[Pearse Shields]

I'm assuming the TS is wanting to use these to improve his general conditioning and recovery ability, rather than focusing on the actual times of his run.

Personally, I prefer to try and reduce my rest times between efforts, rather than focusing on getting my time for my sprints down. I run at max intensity, rest, then run again. If I can decrease my rest time between these sprints, then my overall ability to recover between rounds improves. I do also wind up with much better endurance in the runs themselves of course, being able to keep a higher pace for longer.

 

[IgorsOverhand]

I agree that 2s & 4s are a much better combo.

800 is in my opinion the hardest event in athletics. When you train for an event you shouldn't actually train on the distances. For example if training for 400s I'd do 50s, 100s, 200s, 300s. Using a pyramid training system. (start at 50s go up to 300s then go back down)

After that I'd run 600s repeatedly. (lots of them) Extended sprinting is the key to success in 400, 800.

I used to get smoked by the top guys in my high school in 100s and 200s. But they couldn't hold a candle to me in 400s cos I had tremendous 'lactate endurance' so to speak from just slamming 500s and 600s repeatedly.

Add in lots of Stretching and some plyometrics once or twice a week and youll be laughing.

Remember train shorter & longer than the distance your racing.

I ran 51.48 about 2 years ago
And 1:58 for the 800

 

[Qen]

I agree with Igors on the 600s. I was a sprinter in HS (many years ago), mainly 100 and 200 but I was also on the 400X4 relay team.

We had a great track coach who had a hardon for 400m runners and one of his main training practices was running the 600 by setting a time for the 400m portion then using the last 200m of it using anything you had left in the tank.

I dont remember the times we used for the 400 portion of it but I remember quite a few days ,at the beginning of training , "feeding the worms" as he put it.(puking)

we had a few low 50s and a couple of sub 50s 400m runners.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I ran both the 4 and 8 in high school, I'm a junior now in college so a bit past my prime lol but from my experience there I would suggest training 5 days a week, 2 of those on the track. We used to do a type of pyramid 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 - 8 - 6 - 4 -2, and rest whatever you run, so sprint 200, light jog 200, sprint 400, light jog 400, and so on. The other 3 days anywhere from 2-5 miles but not on the track - I prefer parks over the monotony of a track any day.

Whatever you do, once a week is not enough to see real progress. Doing simple workouts like that brought me from a :59 400m to sub :51 three years later. Keep in mind that I didn't run year round, only during track season but I was pretty happy with my progress.

That's a great idea. However, it might be a little counter productive to what I want to achieve, which is to lower constantly my PR.

There are 2 reasons why i am focusing on PR:
- I feel like it is a clear objective (which will also keeps me motivated)
- It is easy to benchmark to see where I stand

So if I do your idea of a pyramid as you described above, only the first 200 would be relevant, since for the other steps of the pyramid I would be already tired. Unless, I time the whole thing, which would be a great idea (I thought of that as well), but let's be serious.....I'm getting started, so I need something simple as fuck.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I think you could get a better answer by explaining exactly what you want to get out of the track work. Conditioning, (and of what sort), or explosiveness, muscular endurance, speed endurance? Also, what does your other training consist of?

I'll gladly answer that.

- My first motivation is because I am inherently interested in acquiring short distance running skills. I used to love running as a kid.

- Second, as a complement for combat sports. I would like to up my anaerobic gas tank, that is to maximise the output I can deliver in a short amount of time.

My other training consists of grappling 2-3x a week, climbing 1x a week, stand up 1x a week.

I am 31, stocky build (77 Kg for 1,76m), not out of shape but not in good shape either.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

I'm assuming the TS is wanting to use these to improve his general conditioning and recovery ability, rather than focusing on the actual times of his run.
Personally, I prefer to try and reduce my rest times between efforts, rather than focusing on getting my time for my sprints down. I run at max intensity, rest, then run again. If I can decrease my rest time between these sprints, then my overall ability to recover between rounds improves. I do also wind up with much better endurance in the runs themselves of course, being able to keep a higher pace for longer.

In a prefect world, I would actually like to improve both.

The PR component for reasons mentionned in my replies above this post.

Improving my overall ability to recover between rounds is of course another aspect which would make sense to work on.

When you think of "recovery between rounds", do you advocate just chilling for a minute, or light jog, like in the pyramid idea above ?