Rugby In Schools Is A Form Of Child Abuse, Claims A New Study

[Osculater]

When did you play rugby old chap?

The summer of 98

 

[lsa]

Our forum's very own @lsa played rugby as a kid and now he can't read or write. I'm not surprised by this study.

I regret nothing!!

 

[lsa]

The summer of 98

Me and some guys from school
Had a band and we tried real hard
Jimmy quit and Jody got married
I should've known we'd never get far
Oh, when I look back now
That summer seemed to last forever
And if I had the choice
Yeah, I'd always wanna be there
Those were the best days of my life

 

[Sobek]

Care is needed. You ever dealt with someone with severe CTE or dementia? Its not pretty. This isnt just philosophy on toughness or not.

Yes. Yes I have. I'm dealing with someone at present in my life. In fact dementia/alzhiemers is being dubbed as type 3 diabetes. So perhaps more effort should go into correct information on diet and lifestyle (accurate info) rather than trying to wrap children in cotton wool for physical sports.

I can't find the clip but some years back Kostya Tszyu got into a debate about the age of children being allowed to compete in amatuer boxing being raised considerably. He was against it stating children can learn defence and make mistakes whilst young when they are not hitting each other as hard hence taking less damage. As opposed to someone starting amatuer bouts as a much more developed teen or adult, making mistakes etc and racking up considerably more damage whilst trying to learn as their opponents hit much harder as they are stronger. The argument has some merit.

The tl/dr is learning contact sports later in life can mean more damage due to beginner mistakes/lessons that could have been learned as a child with less damage.

I agree that care is needed however.

 

[Osculater]

Me and some guys from school
Had a band and we tried real hard
Jimmy quit and Jody got married
I should've known we'd never get far
Oh, when I look back now
That summer seemed to last forever
And if I had the choice
Yeah, I'd always wanna be there
Those were the best days of my life

 

[Tone C]

The summer of 98

I think that's baseball old boy

 

[Osculater]

I think that's baseball old boy

Are you sure, bro?

 

[TheMaster]

I'd give this more weight if it was Anerican football. Kids slamming into each other at full speed eith crash helmets on, plenty of concussions. Rugby has significantly less traumatic brain injury. Boxing it's all about managing the intensity of the impacts. My students spar 3 times a week, but its not all-out wars and we do sparring exercises where the head isnt hit (body only) routinely.

Also the comparison between hitting a child outside a Sport being abuse, thus hitting them inside a Sport should also be abuse is a massive false equivalency. Are we talking about adults hitting them or other kids hitting them? There needs to be a distinction there.

Its definitely not a "safe" environment though, because of risk factors. However if we go by risk and statistics there literally isnt anywhere safe.

You're very wrong.
Rugby is way tougher and more dangerous than the watered down version called American Football wearing full body armour, as any study you care to look at has shown that Rugby has far more brain injuries. They even have helmets on to protect against concussions for fucks sake which is not a bad thing.
Football with the dancing fairies in the background will be fine but doing it with no protection is always dangerous, more so as a child.

 

[Sobek]

You're very wrong.
Rugby is way tougher and more dangerous than the watered down version called American Football wearing full body armour, as any study you care to look at has shown that Rugby has far more brain injuries. They even have helmets on to protect against concussions for fucks sake which is not a bad thing.
Football with the dancing fairies in the background will be fine but doing it with no protection is always dangerous, more so as a child.

I'm not sure about those stats. Guys with helmets position their heads in such a way they are hitting even harder. The entire body jolt causes the brain shake to occur.
Plus a lot of the US athletes are bigger (rugby union and rugby league require more ongoing running with less breaks which tends to lend itself to smaller/leaner athletes). Some of the NFL guys are fucking huge and sprint and hit well. Its even more force.

Australian rules football requires even more running and results in leaner athletes again.

I don't follow rugby union or rugby league any more but I'm not aware of an endemic of CTE here (not saying its not happening but I'm not hearing it).

Plus the game has been gayed up with the banning of vaguely head high tackles and shoulder charges that would have caused much of that damage.

I do hear the NFL is riddled with it however.

It has been an ongoing joke/accusation levelled at rugby players since the 80s at least but I'm not seeing much of it.
Maybe other Ozzie or Britsh posters know different.

 

[Anewt]

Idk, the guy seemed to make some decent points. If I had kids, I wouldn’t put them in football or rugby. Not until they’re in high school at least.

But calling it child abuse is a bit of a stretch.

I'd be careful with that. I know it seems contradictory but by high school there's a lot of coordination that's developed in terms of getting hit and hitting that actually keeps kids more injury free. Going in at 13 or so for the first time without that experience is pretty mental. By year 7 ( primary school 11-12 age ) here in Australia it wasn't that strange to have 6 foot Polynesians who weighed comfortable double my weight .

Thats a rough introduction imo.


Take for instance the NHL made rules regarding hits in juniours changing at the pro level. The young fellows are getting lit up because not accustomed to the hits

 

[Anewt]

I'm not sure about those stats. Guys with helmets position their heads in such a way they are hitting even harder. The entire body jolt causes the brain shake to occur.
Plus a lot of the US athletes are bigger (rugby union and rugby league require more ongoing running with less breaks which tends to lend itself to smaller/leaner athletes). Some of the NFL guys are fucking huge and sprint and hit well. Its even more force.

Australian rules football requires even more running and results in leaner athletes again.

I don't follow rugby union or rugby league any more but I'm not aware of an endemic of CTE here (not saying its not happening but I'm not hearing it).

Plus the game has been gayed up with the banning of vaguely head high tackles and shoulder charges that would have caused much of that damage.

I do hear the NFL is riddled with it however.

It has been an ongoing joke/accusation levelled at rugby players since the 80s at least but I'm not seeing much of it.
Maybe other Ozzie or Britsh posters know different.

It's becoming very prevalent nowadays sadly for the crop that's retired past decade. Took our rugby competitions a long time to get the level of professionalism seen in the nfl.

( rugby)
20 years ago the games were substitution. Not interchange. Iirc union was 3 a game. League 4. You generally required not just athletes but a special kind of cardio/ toughness. No point being fast if you couldn't last a game. Ditto big.
Hence the absolutely dramatic size and speed increases the past decade. Now we're catching up with cte that's come with the increased forces from massive guys moving quickly.

There's a reason all the protocols have been introduced recently. You can take a bigger head knock in soccer than rugby and stay on the field now. Because mandatory head injury assessment by independent medics now.


Funny thing about the nfl is the running backs and wide receivers ( those who seem to run the ball the most ) have a average size of

RB- Avg. Height: 70.73 in Avg. Weight: 214.48 lbs
WR- Avg. Height: 72.40 in Avg. Weight: 200.32 lb

6 foot 97kg isn't particularly a large guy.... definitely not in rugby . Nor afl actually .

The real giants in the nfl are generally pretty static. There's no run up for the collision. ( not saying it doesn't happen ) but for the majority its not 30 -40 tackles being made along with being tackled ten or so times with momentum. The amount of collisions in rugby definitely makes it pretty prone to cte. Ditto afl

For instance Jordan mailata a left tackle at Philadelphia former under 20s rugby league player 6'8 365lbs ( 166kg ) would be dealing with far less impact in his position in nfl than league.

 

[Sobek]

It's becoming very prevalent nowadays sadly for the crop that's retired past decade. Took our rugby competitions a long time to get the level of professionalism seen in the nfl.

( rugby)
20 years ago the games were substitution. Not interchange. Iirc union was 3 a game. League 4. You generally required not just athletes but a special kind of cardio/ toughness. No point being fast if you couldn't last a game. Ditto big.
Hence the absolutely dramatic size and speed increases the past decade. Now we're catching up with cte that's come with the increased forces from massive guys moving quickly.

There's a reason all the protocols have been introduced recently. You can take a bigger head knock in soccer than rugby and stay on the field now. Because mandatory head injury assessment by independent medics now.


Funny thing about the nfl is the running backs and wide receivers ( those who seem to run the ball the most ) have a average size of

RB- Avg. Height: 70.73 in Avg. Weight: 214.48 lbs
WR- Avg. Height: 72.40 in Avg. Weight: 200.32 lb

6 foot 97kg isn't particularly a large guy.... definitely not in rugby . Nor afl actually .

The real giants in the nfl are generally pretty static. There's no run up for the collision. ( not saying it doesn't happen ) but for the majority its not 30 -40 tackles being made along with being tackled ten or so times with momentum. The amount of collisions in rugby definitely makes it pretty prone to cte. Ditto afl

For instance Jordan mailata a defensive tackle at Philadelphia former under 20s rugby league player 6'8 365lbs ( 166kg ) would be dealing with far less impact in his position in nfl than league.

Ok sounds like my theory is wrong. Have you got any names for rugby players with cte?

 

[Anewt]

Ok sounds like my theory is wrong. Have you got any names for rugby players with cte?

It's one of those diagnosed mainly after death isn't that the catch ? There's only been a recent push of athletes donating their brains to science that's actually begun to advance the research into it and we kept the blinkers on so to speak longer than the nfl.

It's going to be as nasty as it was for the nfl.

University of Glasgow - University news - Risk of degenerative brain disease CTE increases with longer rugby careers

www.gla.ac.uk

In a world-first collaboration between leading laboratories at the University of Glasgow, Boston University and the University of Sydney, researchers find new evidence to link playing rugby – either at amateur or an elite level – with risk of developing CTE. Led by Prof Willie Stewart at the University of Glasgow, the work follows major findings from his group last year which reported neurodegenerative disease risk among former Scottish international rugby union players approximately two and a half times higher than expected.

This latest study, which is published in Acta Neuropathologica, looked at the results of detailed postmortem brain examinations of 31 former amateur and elite rugby union players whose brains were donated for research purposes to one of three leading centres in the UK, United States, and Australia. CTE was found in around two thirds (68%) of the brains examined, and in both amateur and elite players.

Importantly, risk of CTE pathology was associated with length of a player’s rugby career, with each additional year of play adding 14% to risk of CTE. Player position or level of participation, either amateur or elite, did not appear to influence risk of CTE.

More than 400 ex-rugby players died early from brain injuries, claim lawyers

Richard Boardman, who is leading the legal action against both rugby codes on behalf of hundreds of former players, says brain damage is an ‘absolute epidemic’ in the game and immediate changes are needed

www.theguardian.com

The lawyers working with more than 75 former rugby league players to take legal action against the Rugby Football League – as well as 175 former rugby union players in a similar action – believe that potentially more than 400 players from both codes have died early due to neurological defects from playing the game and have reiterated the need for the league to make “substantive, immediate changes” to prevent further players from suffering the same.



Rugby league

An Australian study of 25 retired NRL players showed they had impaired reaction times and concentration compared to the general population.[97][98]

This included Kangaroos player Ian Roberts who had been knocked unconscious 14 times over his professional career.[99][100]

In 2022, former player Paul Green died at the age of 49. A neuropathologist professor stated Green had one of the most severe cases of CTE they'd ever seen.[101]


Afl


Analysis of the late Australian rules football player Danny Frawley brain revealed that he had stage two chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) at the time of his death in 2019.[102]

Australian rules football player Greg Williams is thought to have CTE as a result of concussions over a 250-game career.[103]

In March 2016 Justin Clarke of the Australian Football League (AFL) team the Brisbane Lions was forced to retire at just 22 years of age due to a serious concussion sustained during off-season training two months earlier.[104] He was the fifth AFL player in the previous ten months to retire with concussion related injuries, with Sam Blease (25 yo, Melbourne and Geelong), Jack Fitzpatrick (26 yo, Hawthorn and Melbourne Football Club), Leigh Adams (27 yo, North Melbourne), Matt Maguire (32 yo, Brisbane and St Kilda), and Brent Reilly (32 yo, Adelaide) all having retired since May 2015. All the retirements were linked to a crackdown on head injuries by the AFL and fears of CTE associated with local and international sportspeople, especially American footballers.[105]


In 2021, an analysis of former Australian rules football player Shane Tuck revealed that he was suffering from stage three CTE, up to his suicide in 2020. This made him the third player to be diagnosed with CTE.[106]


Once again. Those guys imo 100% unfortunately have cte. But untill they pass and they choose to donate brain to science in autopsy they cannot diagnose it.

The rates will be sad

 

[Thrawn33]

Next thing you know youth combat sports will be outlawed because someone has to lose and that's damaging to a kids psyche.

I almost had a perfect losing season my first year wrestling. I didn't quit. I won my final match that year.

 

[Wetarmpits]

I would even go as far and say most professional high level kids sport is borderline abuse.

Friend of mine was a professional gymnast as a kid and teenager with tons of drill from parents and teachers aiming for the nationals etc. now her knees and shoulders are fucked, she’s an addict, hips are jumping out regularly and on top she fucking hated it.

I believe that is quite a common case with kids just going along because they want approval and praise by parents or are afraid for other reasons to speak up.

 

[Sinister]

Yes. Yes I have. I'm dealing with someone at present in my life. In fact dementia/alzhiemers is being dubbed as type 3 diabetes. So perhaps more effort should go into correct information on diet and lifestyle (accurate info) rather than trying to wrap children in cotton wool for physical sports.

I can't find the clip but some years back Kostya Tszyu got into a debate about the age of children being allowed to compete in amatuer boxing being raised considerably. He was against it stating children can learn defence and make mistakes whilst young when they are not hitting each other as hard hence taking less damage. As opposed to someone starting amatuer bouts as a much more developed teen or adult, making mistakes etc and racking up considerably more damage whilst trying to learn as their opponents hit much harder as they are stronger. The argument has some merit.

The tl/dr is learning contact sports later in life can mean more damage due to beginner mistakes/lessons that could have been learned as a child with less damage.

I agree that care is needed however.

Alzheimer's isnt exactly the same as CTE or dementia pugilistica. I've seen a few guys deteriorate from that relatively young and their entire lives fall apart. USA Boxing has a rule where any time you take an Amateur to spar at other gyms, you're supposed to show your Coach's book. No one enforces this but the reason that rule was established is because here in Vegas a Dad was taking his teenaged Son to spar up to 3 times a day at different gyms. Kid ended up dying.

It's a balance between proper technique (not enough trainers focus on positioning the head to prevent whiplash and building stabilizing strength), and frequency of taking damage. There is way too much "let them bang" in the sport currently. It doesn't have to be as extreme as wrapping them in cotton wool, nor the macho nonsense that is too prevalent in the Sport perpetuated by guys who either have never fought much or based their entire careers off that.

 

[Sinister]

You're very wrong.
Rugby is way tougher and more dangerous than the watered down version called American Football wearing full body armour, as any study you care to look at has shown that Rugby has far more brain injuries. They even have helmets on to protect against concussions for fucks sake which is not a bad thing.
Football with the dancing fairies in the background will be fine but doing it with no protection is always dangerous, more so as a child.

The helmets in American football do very little to protect against concussions in the same sense that boxing headgear does pretty much nothing to prevent concussions either. In both cases the mouthpiece does a lot more. Being able to collide heads directly is going to have an increased risk for both players, on top of the crashing to the ground.

And no, data is all over the place on this. I've seen studies with Rugby at the top, American football at the top, and some with ice hockey at the top. There are also very different metrics used for assessments, some studies base conclusions on emergency room visits, some on long-term medical data of players, and there are variables such as accounting for time on the field, which rugby players have significantly more.

I don't really care which sport is "tougher"...what I care about is that athletes can have some modicum of playing or competing and having quality of life after.

 

[AFanNotAFighter]

Kid in my high school was paralyzed from the chest down playing rugby on the team. The school disbanded rugby soon after.

 

[freakroor]

Just having children is a form of child abuse. They didnt consent to be born.

 

[TheMaster]

Just having children is a form of child abuse. They didnt consent to be born.

Well if rebirth is true they did in fact choose it

The helmets in American football do very little to protect against concussions in the same sense that boxing headgear does pretty much nothing to prevent concussions either. In both cases the mouthpiece does a lot more. Being able to collide heads directly is going to have an increased risk for both players, on top of the crashing to the ground.

And no, data is all over the place on this. I've seen studies with Rugby at the top, American football at the top, and some with ice hockey at the top. There are also very different metrics used for assessments, some studies base conclusions on emergency room visits, some on long-term medical data of players, and there are variables such as accounting for time on the field, which rugby players have significantly more.

I don't really care which sport is "tougher"...what I care about is that athletes can have some modicum of playing or competing and having quality of life after.

Studies are generally supporting that Rugby is more dangerous and has a higher chance of injury including concussions as one would expect. There are some areas where football can cause more severe injuries due to the higher impact but as one would expect, no headgear is always going to be more dangerous than wearing helmets just like pro boxing is more dangerous than amateur.