Royce: "Jiu-jitsu is enough ... I believe in pure jiu-jitsu."

I think royce message is right.

If you started your mma career as a grappler (bjj), then you have to grapple. Instead of working 100000 of MT, you would be much better working some basic striking but a shit ton of wrestling. You need to get the fight to the ground, period, its different if you started as a MMA fighter right from the start though....
That's not what he said at all, he said pure Jiu jitsu was sufficient and you only need look at wrestling to learn counters to it.
In regards to the lung kick- clinch- takedown game not working in today's MMA world I counter with the incredibly success inside leg kick-overhand right-clinch-takedown game implemented by the Team Quest boys at the highest level. (Randy, Chael, Dan) have all used this blueprint to success at a high level.
Steps to becoming a successful BJJ fighter in MMA:
1. Become a world class wrestler
 
Didn't Carlos cross train? Didn't Maeda cross train?


Who's forgetting history?


That's not what he said at all, he said pure Jiu jitsu was sufficient and you only need look at wrestling to learn counters to it.
Steps to becoming a successful BJJ fighter in MMA:
1. Become a world class wrestler

or

2. Become a high level judoka who can translate clinch takedowns into mma against high level wrestlers (Maia). A key point here is not to forget when your judo and bjj are much better than your boxing.
 
He shot seven take-downs in both fights. The difference from the Fitch fight was that he wasn't succeeding, not that he wasn't trying. Perhaps you need to watch them again?

Weird that his rededication to pure water Helio Jiu Jitsu from his previous rock-em-sock-em ways just happened to coincide with his drop to a weight class where he wasn't out-sized by all his opponents...

A judo black belt clinching up and executing reaping throws from the clinch is pure water Helio Jiu Jitsu? C'mon.
 
Good points!

But to counter these points for fun, I would say Royce vs Ken II if judged by today's MMA standards is a decision win for Royce all day. 10x the strikes, 2 close subs vs 1 takedown, 1big punch and top control with little to no offense.

In regards to the lung kick- clinch- takedown game not working in today's MMA world I counter with the incredibly success inside leg kick-overhand right-clinch-takedown game implemented by the Team Quest boys at the highest level. (Randy, Chael, Dan) have all used this blueprint to success at a high level.

Again I believe Royce's Muay Thai training in prep for Hughes was in fear of Hughes using defensive wrestling to take the grappling out of the fight. I will have to go back and see who initiated the takedowns in that fight.

And I think his point is Roger got away from what he knows and it cost him....

Clinching and taking people down does work well for expert greco roman wrestlers who have trained clinching and taking people down from clinches at a high level for years. Not so much for people who explicitly don't really train wrestling. Comparing Royce's ability to get into and throw from a clinch with Randy Couture's is a stretch to say the least. There's no way he was going to do it against a high level wrestler like Hughes.

Regarding Roger, I don't think he's ever gotten away from BJJ. In his wins he's won by submission with the exception of the Jardine fight, and against Kennedy he tried to take him down all day. Hell, he had his back for much of the first round but couldn't finish because Kennedy also knows BJJ and finishing chokes with the gloves is really hard, especially within a round time limit. I'm not sure Roger could have fought in a much more prototypical BJJ-for-MMA way, but it wasn't enough because Kennedy is a well rounded fighter and he was able to defend Roger's admittedly not great TDs and superb ground offense, and then out strike him to get the win. I don't really see how a BJJ guy without elite level striking or TDs is going to change that equation against any modern high level MMA fighter. Royce may be right from a self defense perspective since for SD all you really need to do is prevent yourself from being hurt, but in terms of winning fights in the UFC he's dead wrong.
 
People are quick to make fun of Royce, but reading his quotes he's just saying that if one is strong in something, he must bring the fight there.. nothing more.

And looking at K-1 Maia or other similar examples, I think he is perfectly right.

YUP. This is what he is trying to say.
 
Clinching and taking people down does work well for expert greco roman wrestlers who have trained clinching and taking people down from clinches at a high level for years. Not so much for people who explicitly don't really train wrestling. Comparing Royce's ability to get into and throw from a clinch with Randy Couture's is a stretch to say the least. There's no way he was going to do it against a high level wrestler like Hughes.

Regarding Roger, I don't think he's ever gotten away from BJJ. In his wins he's won by submission with the exception of the Jardine fight, and against Kennedy he tried to take him down all day. Hell, he had his back for much of the first round but couldn't finish because Kennedy also knows BJJ and finishing chokes with the gloves is really hard, especially within a round time limit. I'm not sure Roger could have fought in a much more prototypical BJJ-for-MMA way, but it wasn't enough because Kennedy is a well rounded fighter and he was able to defend Roger's admittedly not great TDs and superb ground offense, and then out strike him to get the win. I don't really see how a BJJ guy without elite level striking or TDs is going to change that equation against any modern high level MMA fighter. Royce may be right from a self defense perspective since for SD all you really need to do is prevent yourself from being hurt, but in terms of winning fights in the UFC he's dead wrong.

Yeah for sure, wasn't comparing abilities of Royce and Quest, just showing that a simple gameplan executed right still works in MMA. I mean what Quest has been doing is essentially the Greco version of the Gracie Lung kick to clinch game.


And yes again, Roger did implement his grappling well in MMA. I think of course like most high level BJJ guys in MMA, high level wrestling has been there crypto night. I didn't like how long he stood in front of King Mo sticking that jab out before getting head butted. Along with Rolkes getting caught standing recently I'm guessing it's hurting the pride of the family.

The simple thing is you need to train MMA to be good at MMA! but it's ok to still be a specialist with go to moves that you should try not to get to far away from.

Anyways like I said I see both sides of the issue here and was just taking up for Royce's side to play devils advocate a little.
 
Yeah for sure, wasn't comparing abilities of Royce and Quest, just showing that a simple gameplan executed right still works in MMA. I mean what Quest has been doing is essentially the Greco version of the Gracie Lung kick to clinch game.


And yes again, Roger did implement his grappling well in MMA. I think of course like most high level BJJ guys in MMA, high level wrestling has been there crypto night. I didn't like how long he stood in front of King Mo sticking that jab out before getting head butted. Along with Rolkes getting caught standing recently I'm guessing it's hurting the pride of the family.

The simple thing is you need to train MMA to be good at MMA! but it's ok to still be a specialist with go to moves that you should try not to get to far away from.

Anyways like I said I see both sides of the issue here and was just taking up for Royce's side to play devils advocate a little.

Definitely being a specialist is fine, and a simple game plan will still work (GSP has won and defended the world title with a game plan based on two moves: the jab, and shooting a double as a punch counter) if executed well. I guess my point is that the game plan that Royce is saying a BJJ guy should use is not actually the one he or his family trains for. If they did, they'd spend a ton of time doing standing clinch work and working Judo/Greco style throws without the gi on...but they don't spend any time doing that, and the TD work is almost all non-live SD (at least from the 'pure'
Humaita schools I've trained with). Royce is venturing into TMA territory here if his point is that all the moves are there, you just aren't executing them well enough. The same can be said of any art, what sets the real applicable combat sports apart is training like you plan to fight and I don't think pure GJJ does that. The only area where their training resembles anything that might happen in a fight is after the fight is already on the ground. Not surprisingly, they're great there but pretty weak everywhere else.

I feel too that I should throw out what I always throw out in these 'GJJ purity in MMA' threads, which is Carlson/BTT. The BJJ based guys who had the most success over the years have always been the ones with strong TD games, dominant top pressure, and decent striking, good enough that opponents have to respect it. To me, that wrestle-jitsu that Sperry, Bustamante, Arona, etc developed in the early 2000s and used to great effect in PRIDE is still the template for applying BJJ in MMA against other guys who also have some grappling knowledge. I think to a large extent the resurgence of Maia (in addition to his weight cut) has been due to his development of really dominating standing grappling. Incidentally, he basically neutralized Fitch with a clinch/trip game, but it was far more developed than anything Royce ever had.
 
Definitely being a specialist is fine, and a simple game plan will still work (GSP has won and defended the world title with a game plan based on two moves: the jab, and shooting a double as a punch counter) if executed well. I guess my point is that the game plan that Royce is saying a BJJ guy should use is not actually the one he or his family trains for. If they did, they'd spend a ton of time doing standing clinch work and working Judo/Greco style throws without the gi on...but they don't spend any time doing that, and the TD work is almost all non-live SD (at least from the 'pure'
Humaita schools I've trained with). Royce is venturing into TMA territory here if his point is that all the moves are there, you just aren't executing them well enough. The same can be said of any art, what sets the real applicable combat sports apart is training like you plan to fight and I don't think pure GJJ does that. The only area where their training resembles anything that might happen in a fight is after the fight is already on the ground. Not surprisingly, they're great there but pretty weak everywhere else.

I feel too that I should throw out what I always throw out in these 'GJJ purity in MMA' threads, which is Carlson/BTT. The BJJ based guys who had the most success over the years have always been the ones with strong TD games, dominant top pressure, and decent striking, good enough that opponents have to respect it. To me, that wrestle-jitsu that Sperry, Bustamante, Arona, etc developed in the early 2000s and used to great effect in PRIDE is still the template for applying BJJ in MMA against other guys who also have some grappling knowledge. I think to a large extent the resurgence of Maia (in addition to his weight cut) has been due to his development of really dominating standing grappling. Incidentally, he basically neutralized Fitch with a clinch/trip game, but it was far more developed than anything Royce ever had.

Once again, I agree 100% with your post.
 
^Yep, great post Uchi Mata. Royce talks about remembering history, well how about the history from 15 years ago when BTT brought in a decorated U.S. wrestler, Darrel Gholar, specifically to improve their takedowns.

I really wish more BJJ teams and academies followed that example. I still think Gholar's Vale Tudo Takedowns and 9-7-5's of Wrestling videos are great instructionals for BJJ guys who have never wrestled before. Kenny Johnson is trying to do the same thing now with his Bolt material, good for him.

Heck if we want to get old school with the history, Rolls Gracie was cross training wrestling 20 years before the first UFC.
 
Royce knows how to get his name in the papers. I'm thinking he learned this by watching Chael Sonnen. I'm happy for him and I wish him well.
 
You'd have / should read about Japanese history from a Chinese (and Korean) perspective. They have a long history of invading other countries (Unit 731 for starters) and doing the unspeakable.

not particularly... i mean, from the early 1600s through the mid 1800s, while the western world was busy taking over the world, japan had an isolationist policy until it was forcibly opened up. then there was a relatively short history of conquest, which ended with wwii. there was also the thought of taking over china (through korea) in the late 1500s, but that didn't really take...
 
Definitely being a specialist is fine, and a simple game plan will still work (GSP has won and defended the world title with a game plan based on two moves: the jab, and shooting a double as a punch counter) if executed well. I guess my point is that the game plan that Royce is saying a BJJ guy should use is not actually the one he or his family trains for. If they did, they'd spend a ton of time doing standing clinch work and working Judo/Greco style throws without the gi on...but they don't spend any time doing that, and the TD work is almost all non-live SD (at least from the 'pure'
Humaita schools I've trained with). Royce is venturing into TMA territory here if his point is that all the moves are there, you just aren't executing them well enough. The same can be said of any art, what sets the real applicable combat sports apart is training like you plan to fight and I don't think pure GJJ does that. The only area where their training resembles anything that might happen in a fight is after the fight is already on the ground. Not surprisingly, they're great there but pretty weak everywhere else.

I feel too that I should throw out what I always throw out in these 'GJJ purity in MMA' threads, which is Carlson/BTT. The BJJ based guys who had the most success over the years have always been the ones with strong TD games, dominant top pressure, and decent striking, good enough that opponents have to respect it. To me, that wrestle-jitsu that Sperry, Bustamante, Arona, etc developed in the early 2000s and used to great effect in PRIDE is still the template for applying BJJ in MMA against other guys who also have some grappling knowledge. I think to a large extent the resurgence of Maia (in addition to his weight cut) has been due to his development of really dominating standing grappling. Incidentally, he basically neutralized Fitch with a clinch/trip game, but it was far more developed than anything Royce ever had.

Yup!! In a wrestling/Carlson guy myself. So I can dig this post!
 
Yup!! In a wrestling/Carlson guy myself. So I can dig this post!

It's the best BJJ style for MMA, I think it would be hard to argue otherwise. You're basically a wrestler who knows how to finish and understands which positions are dominant from the perspective of doing a lot of damage, which has always been the weakness of pure wrestlers in MMA IMO. You don't need really sophisticated wrestling either, you just need to be really good at a few key moves. Basically, if you have a good double leg, single leg, gut wrench (mostly for putting guy back down when the stand up from turtle), and outside trip and can clinch fight well you're probably set. Good takedown defense as well, since the guard is a pretty iffy proposition in modern MMA. Ricardo Arona basically had a beastly double and no other really good TDs, but he could put almost anyone on the ground and control them. Same with Sperry, his TD arsenal wasn't huge but he was really good at the few he liked and his wrestling worked great for MMA. Even Renzo follows that pattern to a large extent, I never saw him trying anything too esoteric from the feet but his TDs were good enough to get fights to the ground, which is all he needed.
 
While I respect Royce and realize that no one would even be watching MMA if it wasn't for him and his family, his argument is pure SHITE!
 
And this is why Royce, and like minded Gracies, are irrelevant in 2013.
 
If he means it is silly for a bjj guy to stand with a striker, yes, he is right. Think of Rhalan Gracie, and now Rolles, getting lit up buy guys they could have subbed, for no good reason.
 
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