rolling kneebar from clinch without getting stacked

[Kforcer]

I've fallen in love with the move, ever since seeing it on lockflow.com and then in the Degeneration X PPV, specifically in Michaels-Shamrock.

I've pulled off the move a few times against relative newcomers or people either smaller than me or a bit weaker but when the competition stiffens, it has become a bit tougher to apply...I've ALMOST gotten it on a few experienced guys, one of whom was way bigger than me...but so far, it hasn't QUITE happened.

Okay, last night, I was rolling with my boy, and I went for the rolling kneebar from the clinch...and ended up not only getting stacked, but smashing my head into his knee. Against him, what I did was overhook, clinch and then maintain the overhook as I went for a forward roll towards his knee. At the time, he was standing up straight.

My own self-corrections are as follows:

1. maintain the overhook when rolling for the kneebar mainly against those you are confident in your ability to overpower

2. if you maintain the overhook through the roll ala Ken Shamrock-Shawn Michaels, bend them over first, then tuck your chin and roll for the leg with your other hand.

I think that, although it might have less control, against significantly larger opponents--even if they aren't stronger--its best to roll from clinch WITHOUT maintaining the overhook. Thus far, I've done better by have a free-roll for the legs from the clinch where I release the overhook.

My final thought: before you roll, you gotta step between the opponent's legs with your near leg...and I think it would be wise to kick as powerfully as you can with that leg as you roll.

Anyway, any suggestions on making good on a rolling kneebar from clinch?

 

[sambosteve]

Three main problems I see that people have are:

1) They loosen their grip when dropping to roll so they lose their control of the opponant from the onset. The idea is to keep the grip real tight so when you drop to roll, your body weight pulls him down with you. If you have a loose grip or straighten your arms when you roll, he remains standing and can stack you.

2) Poor rolls. You must eliminate the concept of forward rolling. You need to roll deep under yourself and your opponant. Very deep. Most people in the beginning really need to work on modifying their rolls and minimizing the forward motion of the roll. The more forward the roll, the more space between you and him (and his leg) and the greater the chance of getting stacked. A good drill for developing your rolls and reach is to hang a belt down from the back of your belt. Let it hang only till it reaches the mat. Then practice your rolls and try to grab the belt hanging behind you. This will really help develop your reach and roll unders.

3) Many people try it from a place of stillness. Get your opponant moving druing the clinch or grip fighting and launch the technique when he is in transitional steps.

 

[Kforcer]

Three main problems I see that people have are:

1) They loosen their grip when dropping to roll so they lose their control of the opponant from the onset. The idea is to keep the grip real tight so when you drop to roll, your body weight pulls him down with you. If you have a loose grip or straighten your arms when you roll, he remains standing and can stack you.

2) Poor rolls. You must eliminate the concept of forward rolling. You need to roll deep under yourself and your opponant. Very deep. Most people in the beginning really need to work on modifying their rolls and minimizing the forward motion of the roll. The more forward the roll, the more space between you and him (and his leg) and the greater the chance of getting stacked. A good drill for developing your rolls and reach is to hang a belt down from the back of your belt. Let it hang only till it reaches the mat. Then practice your rolls and try to grab the belt hanging behind you. This will really help develop your reach and roll unders.

3) Many people try it from a place of stillness. Get your opponant moving druing the clinch or grip fighting and launch the technique when he is in transitional steps.

Awesome feedback, Steve! All three comments really make alot of sense to me. I'm keeping a grappling notebook right now and I am gonna copy what you said into it...do you have any other major points on it?

Do you think it is ever a good idea to ditch the overhook/underhook before rolling? What should you do with the overhook/underhook? I usually overhook with one arm, grab the free wrist with my other hand, step between the legs and keep the overhook while I roll for the leg...but sometimes I step between the legs and roll for the legs without keep the grip. Is it ever advantageous to do so, in your opinion?

 

[sambosteve]

Thanks for the kind words ) I am glad the feedback helped.

Well, with and without jackets are two different ballgames. But generally, in both cases, I don't release my grip - which is usually around the neck as if I were doing a head/arm hip throw. Like you noted, your inside leg must kick way up when you roll - it helps off balance him.

Please clarify for me...when you say overhook, are you refering to your overhooking the arm (as in an over/under clinch) or the shoulder? If you have a tight overhook on the arm (like in a whizzer) you can also do the rolling kneebar but, my preference is to switch grips and go around the neck. Still, I have seen it work with a looser grip.

Rolling without keeping the grip can sometimes work but, I usually only do that when I am setting up fakes. For example - going for his far leg for other sorts of ankle locks. In essence, I fake the rolling kneebar and roll/dive for the other leg. Then, it can be adventageous because he expects the kneebar and postures/prepares to defend a roll..all of a sudden, you are diving for the other leg. You can transition to a scissor takedown from the same entry for a rolling kneebar also. Still, I always feel safer using my bodyweight as a load to bring him to the ground with me. My general principle is "no gaps". You give him space, you give him the gift of freedom of movement.

The only other point I have on the rolling kneebar is regarding another commen error. One common mistake is that people grab their opponant's ankle during the roll and try to secure the kneebar after they roll out. This makes life harder and gives him extra time to struggle and escape. If you do it this way, there is a moment after you roll out when you are pulling his leg back to you to secure the bar. By the time you roll out, the kneebar should be in place already. So, when you roll, don't grab for his leg or ankle with your hand, just shot your hand and arm past his leg (On the outside of the target leg) overhook his ankle with your arm (as opposed to grabbing his ankle), and secure his shin on your chest while you roll - not after. The lock will be much faster this way.

Sort of off the topic but...Another time when I will fake and loosen my grip during a sacrificial takedown is with the sitting armbar. If you release your grip, you can easily transition to an inverted knee bar (you are upside down) by underhooking his ankle with your inside arm, swinging your outside leg around, and dropping your inside bent leg between his legs. You intentionally don't bring him down with you so you can maneuver into the kneebar. I don't know how clear that is...LOL

Feel free to shoot me an e-mail...I am not on this forum very often.

[email protected]

 

[Kforcer]

I go for it with an overhook like a whizzer, as you said. I hadn't thought about grabbing the neck while doing it...that's pretty interesting.

 

[sambosteve]

Here is related thread in case you have not seen it...
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/showthread.php?t=318894

 

[markkerr101]

frank shamrock shows it pretty good in his instructionals