RNC vs. Judo choke

[stealthkiller]

sorry for this newb white belt question (you can redirect me immediately to another thread if this is already been discussed), I am a freestyle wrestler and i am not sure what the difference is between a good RNC (any choke we see in UFC) or a judo/sambo choke (fedor on fujita). To all the pros out there, whats better and what would you suggest i stick to (weakness and strenghts of the chokes). being a freestyle wrestler, the judo/sambo seems good for me cause i can role it on to the guy when i spin him. Help please....

 

[Steeltwo]

alot of judo and sambo chokes use the Gi

but as for a RNC, or arm triangle, or leg triangle, that doesn't matter.


but the big question is

what are you training for?

 

[tequilaman]

Good question. There are 2 main types of chokes- jugular (blood) chokes and throat (windpipe) chokes. These come in the form of Gi and no-Gi chokes. Since you are talking about MMA, I assume you would like to know about the basic no-Gi chokes first.

1) The rear-naked choke is a jugular (blood) choke because it cuts of the blood circulation to the head and causes someone to quickly pass out within a few seconds. From behind, you reach far around the neck of the person, making a "V" shape with your forearm and bicep. The bicep crosses one jugular, the forearm crosses the other. Grab the opposite arm's bicep with the arm that in a "V" shape, and take that "free arm's" hand and place it behind the head. Also, known in pro-wrestling as the "sleeper" hold. The choke comes from pressure on the back of the head, and the squeezing of the "V", making it a tighter "V". The blood cuts off quickly, the person sees stars, but it usually doesn't hurt very much. Most people "tap out" not because of the pain, but because of the panic they get when they feel themselves losing consciousness. Here is a pic: http://www.nd.edu/~judo/hadakajime.htm

2) Throat chokes on the other hand hurt like hell and cause the throat to close, preventing air to enter the lungs. Most people tap due to the pain, and panic of not getting air into the lungs. From behind, take one arm, and cross the forearm across the throat, straight across, not angled. You should lean to the same side that your hand is on, pushing your shoulder forward (the same arm as the hand) and pull your hand back. Take your free arm and clasp your hands in a typical wrestling clasp. Again, the pressure is applied by "closing the V", but this time, the angle is such that the pressure is on the front of the throat and on the back of the neck. Throw your shoulder forward while pulling back on your hand. Here is a good drawing of that: http://judoinfo.com/images/shime/hadaka_jime.gif

Here is some more info:

http://judoinfo.com/chokes3.htm


PS- These two chokes are both called the "hadaka jime" in Judo, but they are definitely two different techniques. Learn them both.

 

[judogido]

If you go to a judo class, you will NOT spend much time at all learning the RNC or hadake-jime. Pretty much all our chokes are gi chokes. The RNC is considered a "basic" choke and not used much that I've seen.

However, what WILL benefit you is learning Judo turnovers - which we often do with a choke or armbar to finish. Judo turnovers are quite comprehensive and drilled quite often as they ae an important factor in competitions where the turtle is a valid defense.

BJJ barely trains turnovers. If a BJJer has your back - he will just patiently work your neck until he sinks a RNC because the rules give you pretty much infinite time to work & you cannot defend infinitely while turtling.

 

[stealthkiller]

thanks guys for your invaluable help. I just feel more comfortable with the judo/sambo choke. My concern was that in almost all of the newer UFCs i see them only applying RNC's, so i figured that there may be more defenses against the judo/sambo choke.

 

[judogido]

thanks guys for your invaluable help. I just feel more comfortable with the judo/sambo choke. My concern was that in almost all of the newer UFCs i see them only applying RNC's, so i figured that there may be more defenses against the judo/sambo choke.

No - it's just that Judo and sambo are gi (suits)-based sports.

You need a nice strong collar/lapel to implement most judo chokes. Since you dont see many in UFC wearing gis they cant use gi chokes therefore they use the RNC which is easier against non-gi opponents.

 

[stealthkiller]

when i am saying judo/sambo choke, i mean the one where the apply pressure on the opponents carotid arteries via the radial bone. you do it with a wrestlers grip. theres no gi involved. I learned this choke in a judo class. Its the choke fedor did on fujita

 

[ipponzei what]

when i am saying judo/sambo choke, i mean the one where the apply pressure on the opponents carotid arteries via the radial bone. you do it with a wrestlers grip. theres no gi involved. I learned this choke in a judo class. Its the choke fedor did on fujita

The choke Fedor did on Fujita is a Rear Naked Choke. Oh yes.

 

[Matt Thornton]

I'm pretty sure any choke not involving the gi is called hadaka jime in Judo. Because I saw a guillotine referred to as hadaka jime. Jime means choke, I believe, and hadaka I think means naked.

 

[Soulfly]

There are many chokes, all called "Shimewaza."

The Hadaka Jime is the standard RNC without using the gi. It can be used as a choke with the forearm across the neck here or around the neck for a strangle here.

 

[judogido]

when i am saying judo/sambo choke, i mean the one where the apply pressure on the opponents carotid arteries via the radial bone. you do it with a wrestlers grip. theres no gi involved. I learned this choke in a judo class. Its the choke fedor did on fujita

Rear Naked Strangle/Choke = Hadaka-Jime
Rear Forearm Choke = also Hadake-Jime

<OJudo doent differentiate between these 2 - whether it is a "blood choke" or "air choke" it's all Hadaka Jime.</O

 

[IMP]

To increase confusion I'll throw in the term "Mata Leon"

 

[QingTian]

Fedor's choke was just a RNC done not too deeply. It worked because the bone of the elbow crushes your neck, and Fedor is very strong.

The judo choke you refer to uses the wrist. The advantage of this choke is that you don't have the slide your arm in. With a skilled defensive opponent, and rules in Judo that don't allow you to touch the face, that may be easier to get than a full RNC.

 

[fozzit]

wtf is a judo choke.. aahhaha a choke is a choke is a choke is a choke....

and a strangle is a strangle is a strangle is a strangle...

 

[stealthkiller]

I dont mean to cause conflict/confusion, the RNC is defined as the standard military choke where (if you are right handed) you wrap your left hand around the guys neck, grab your right hands elbow, place your right hand behind the guys neck and squeeze while pushing his head forward. (eg any time trigg taps)

The judo/sambo choke (as defined by me, i dont know the grappling name) is where you place your left hand across the opponents neck, grasp your right hand in a wrestlers grip, then torque your wrist towards the opponent and squeeze. Best example, Taktarov on Tank abbot. (I looked at the fujita/fedor fight again, and I swear its this choke)

My question was basically that i dont see the latter being applied anymore, so are there significant weakness to it.

 

[Soulfly]

No, theres not.