Rickson Gracie FAQ

[NJrocks]

Awesome Thread DK. I am also a fan of your SNES games.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Who rolled with Rickson recently? is he still training daily, and if yes, who are his main training partners?

Famously? Andre Galvao and Paulo Filho, last year, reported to TATAME Magazine. Rickson helped Galvao on his preparation for his first MMA fight.

Ordinarily? In his seminars Rickson rolls a little bit with people if there is time and they ask. Problem is, his seminars are normally packed and with a waiting list, capped at 125 or 150 people or so, so he can't roll with everyone, especially because he is almost 50 and would be rolling with blacks in the 20-30 age range.

Training daily is not what it is, Rickson lives jiu jitsu. It is his life. Does he put on a gi every single day? Maybe not, he has many affairs to deal with, but considering that Jiu Jitsu is his art, job, and hobby, I find it unlikely that he would spend as much as 3 days without getting on the mat. Even Helio trained at least weekly, until the end of his life.

 

[Chris_Keller]

thanks for your quick and complete reply man. Rickson stories are just badass. it would be awesome to have some recent footage of him in action. He made all-time great grapplers such as Funaki look like complete newbs.

 

[DonkeyKong]

I'll check the seminars, there might be one near you and you can see him live. In every seminar there is at least one heavy black belt smartass that tries to play hard when Rickson shows a position, and in every seminar said black belt ends up getting roughed up and tooled on the ground.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

BTT ( Split from Carlson) - No big news here. Big fight between Ze Mario, Bustamante and Carlson. They split. Formed their team. Carlson was notoriously hard to deal with.

The story i got was that since Carlson had moved to the US, he couldnt train the guys back in Brazil. But Carlson still wanted 40% of the purse. Murilo and Ze Mario said they would still give him 10% even if he didnt train them at all. Because of their great respect for Carlson being their Master.

This caused the spilt. Busta and Sperry got some of the team together, and formed BTT. My instructor was in California at the time of the actual split, but went back to Brazil shortly after.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Yes basically Carlson expected to be paid a lot by all of his students. I think that is also why Vitor left him.

 

[MickCollins]

Yes basically Carlson expected to be paid a lot by all of his students. I think that is also why Vitor left him.

Not at all. Carlson stopped training Vitor, not the other way around. Vitor was doing things Carlson didn't approve of in regards to training and the Sakuraba fight. That being said, Carlson and Vitor made up before Sr. died and would talk on the phone a lot.

Carlson and BTT is a much messier thing since the situation is full of rumors, half-truths, he said/she said,etc.... The guys who left Carlson have their version and Carlson's students who stayed loyal have another. The real story will probably never be known because so much emotion was involved. Carlson was an emotional dude. I have been told by some of his students who trained with him before he died that he had forgiven most of the BTT guys except for like 2 guys who he considered backstabbers. The BTT/Carlson split was emotional to both sides.

The one thing that annoys a lot of Carlson's old school students is the impression that has been made that Carlson was greedy. Carlson was not interested in money. Carlson taught for years at Helio and his dad's school for free. He only left to start his own school when he got married and needed to get paid and his dad/Helio told him to start his own place. When BJJ guys would go to Carlson and ask for his help to prepare for MMA/Vale Tudo fights, he wouldn't charge them.(Rickson once talked about how he went to Carlson before his MMA fights for tips.). His old school students would talk about times they couldn't pay their school dues and Carlson would tell them to pay when they could. Heck, one of the BTT founders had such problems paying that Carlson erased his name from the school's billing ledger so people would stop asking why he hadn't paid.

When Carlson came to the US, he would bring his guys over for seminars/fights and let them stay in his apartment so they could save money. Money they made because he set up a lot of fights and seminars for Brazilians to come up and do. Carlson was the first BJJ teacher to go out to businesses to get them to sponsor talented BJJ players/teams. In Chicago, dudes still tell stories of Carlson handing out stickers,patches,shirts , etc.. to people at Jr's school. I remember seeing a story about Carlson at a US BJJ tournament where some kid told him he had a cool sweatshirt. So Carlson took it off and gave it to the kid. He wasn't a greedy guy and he wasn't asking for 40% of the cut of the big hitters he had trained. Its insulting to the memory of a generous guy that people spread such things about him.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Thank you very much for participating in the thread. Your input was very valuable. So far we haven't had anyone who had a lot of info on Carlson, and you really brought it.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Not at all. Carlson stopped training Vitor, not the other way around. Vitor was doing things Carlson didn't approve of in regards to training and the Sakuraba fight. That being said, Carlson and Vitor made up before Sr. died and would talk on the phone a lot.

Carlson and BTT is a much messier thing since the situation is full of rumors, half-truths, he said/she said,etc.... The guys who left Carlson have their version and Carlson's students who stayed loyal have another. The real story will probably never be known because so much emotion was involved. Carlson was an emotional dude. I have been told by some of his students who trained with him before he died that he had forgiven most of the BTT guys except for like 2 guys who he considered backstabbers. The BTT/Carlson split was emotional to both sides.

The one thing that annoys a lot of Carlson's old school students is the impression that has been made that Carlson was greedy. Carlson was not interested in money. Carlson taught for years at Helio and his dad's school for free. He only left to start his own school when he got married and needed to get paid and his dad/Helio told him to start his own place. When BJJ guys would go to Carlson and ask for his help to prepare for MMA/Vale Tudo fights, he wouldn't charge them.(Rickson once talked about how he went to Carlson before his MMA fights for tips.). His old school students would talk about times they couldn't pay their school dues and Carlson would tell them to pay when they could. Heck, one of the BTT founders had such problems paying that Carlson erased his name from the school's billing ledger so people would stop asking why he hadn't paid.

When Carlson came to the US, he would bring his guys over for seminars/fights and let them stay in his apartment so they could save money. Money they made because he set up a lot of fights and seminars for Brazilians to come up and do. Carlson was the first BJJ teacher to go out to businesses to get them to sponsor talented BJJ players/teams. In Chicago, dudes still tell stories of Carlson handing out stickers,patches,shirts , etc.. to people at Jr's school. I remember seeing a story about Carlson at a US BJJ tournament where some kid told him he had a cool sweatshirt. So Carlson took it off and gave it to the kid. He wasn't a greedy guy and he wasn't asking for 40% of the cut of the big hitters he had trained. Its insulting to the memory of a generous guy that people spread such things about him.

So you were there when Murilo, Ze Mario and Carlson had it out then huh? It may not have been 40% for all we know, but i know it was more than what was reasonable for what was being offered.

Carlson was in the US, and the team was in Brazil. How do you expect to take a % of a fighters purse if you are not training them?

 

[easy tiger]

Where did Rickson learn his Yoga?

Orlando Cani

 

[MickCollins]

So you were there when Murilo, Ze Mario and Carlson had it out then huh?

Never said I was. Just said that I doubt it was 40%. We'll never know the exacts involved because I think a whole lot more went into the argument/bust up than just purse divisions.

It may not have been 40% for all we know, but i know it was more than what was reasonable for what was being offered.

I don't wanna turn the Rickson thread into another BTT/Carlson rehash so I won't. I know that a lot of history went into both sides positions and both had their legit points. I wasn't there, I just know a bunch of old school Carlson team guys and have heard stories from them. One of them told me he had mellowed out somewhat before he got sick.

Carlson was in the US, and the team was in Brazil. How do you expect to take a % of a fighters purse if you are not training them?

Well, one of Carlson's positions was that he had provided signficant help on many fronts over the years and that they should cut him some slack for time served. Carlson Sr. said in an interview once that he wanted to set up a big Vale Tudo/BJJ training center in LA and be able to go from LA,Chicago and Brazil and for the fighters at those schools to able to go to LA when they had a fight to train personally with him/professional trainers. So he didn't just abandon the Brazilian guys and planned on going home. He was on his way to having a nifty LA school but the guy who owned the property and one of the investors turned out to be scammers.

And it wasn't like he left them alone, he had guys like Manimal still there helping train them. I agree that I personally would have been annoyed as hell if I were down in Brazil and thought Sr. was abandoning the school but he wasn't. It probably hurt a lot of those guys who were used to having him around 24-7 to think he was trying to look for gold in the US. It seems like a real emotional issue still to a lot of the people who were involved so I don't want this to become a flame war. I just think its wrong that so many people repeat the meme that Carlson was greedy when he wasn't.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Well, one of Carlson's positions was that he had provided signficant help on many fronts over the years and that they should cut him some slack for time served. .

This is very common in regards to MMA trainers and fighters. A trainer will take a kid in off the street, teach him what he knows, get him to a certain level with his training/contacts/etc.

Then the kid feels the trainer has done all he can for him or that he doesn't need him anymore and decides to cut ties or move on. I have seen it many times in many diffrent camps. The one you guys are talking about being one of the bigger of course.

 

[Mike Wilson Jr.]

Never said I was. Just said that I doubt it was 40%. We'll never know the exacts involved because I think a whole lot more went into the argument/bust up than just purse divisions.

Yeah it was more than just that from what i understand. But that was the main dividing factor

I don't wanna turn the Rickson thread into another BTT/Carlson rehash so I won't. I know that a lot of history went into both sides positions and both had their legit points. I wasn't there, I just know a bunch of old school Carlson team guys and have heard stories from them. One of them told me he had mellowed out somewhat before he got sick.

Yeah ive heard that he was pretty much ok with the guys from BTT before his passing. Except for that shit Bonnar said.

Well, one of Carlson's positions was that he had provided signficant help on many fronts over the years and that they should cut him some slack for time served. Carlson Sr. said in an interview once that he wanted to set up a big Vale Tudo/BJJ training center in LA and be able to go from LA,Chicago and Brazil and for the fighters at those schools to able to go to LA when they had a fight to train personally with him/professional trainers. So he didn't just abandon the Brazilian guys and planned on going home. He was on his way to having a nifty LA school but the guy who owned the property and one of the investors turned out to be scammers.

I heard something about this, but it never came of anything. I dont recall much about it, if it had happened though, that would have been amazing.

And it wasn't like he left them alone, he had guys like Manimal still there helping train them. I agree that I personally would have been annoyed as hell if I were down in Brazil and thought Sr. was abandoning the school but he wasn't. It probably hurt a lot of those guys who were used to having him around 24-7 to think he was trying to look for gold in the US. It seems like a real emotional issue still to a lot of the people who were involved so I don't want this to become a flame war. I just think its wrong that so many people repeat the meme that Carlson was greedy when he wasn't.

Yeah no one said he left them to fend for themselves. They all still trained at Carlson's school. But by that time, Murilo, Ze Mario and a lot of guys were doing most of the training. They were the senior black belts.

No hard feelings or anything, obviously both of us are a little biased (me being from BTT and you from Carlson Jrs?), and neither of us have the full story and probably never will. Just wanted to see what people knew about him.

Dont get me wrong, Carlson is a legend in my eyes. And my instructor trained at Carlson's school from the time he was 4 years old, till he was brown belt! Marcelo has nothing but the utmost respect for Carlson and would never stand for anyone badmouthing him. EVER! Marcelo tells me stories about him, shows me stuff that Carlson showed him.

So please dont get the situation confused. Hell, i have a Carlson patch on my GI. I wear my lucky Carlson Team shirt before every competition. We have the same lineage bro.

...

 

[Galahad]

Ok Dk...one last question haha. Actually two.

1.) It seems like all the top Bjj guys come from either Helio's or Carlos' lineage. But they also had other brothers that learned from Maeda as well. Did these other brothers create their own schools or no? Is there any big name jiu-jitsu fighters that can trace their lineage to a brother besides Helio or Carlos?

Here's what I've found so far, but it's all on the internet so I'm not sure how reliable it is.

Osvaldo Gracie - 'best' of the brothers, defeated John Baldy who weighed 360 pounds while Osvaldo only weighed 140. I think I read somewhere that he taught at the main Gracie Academy.

Jorge, or George, Gracie - had a falling out w/ his brothers, strongest built, apparently choked out by Yasuichi Ono, a japanese judoka - here's a link that lists some of his students - Jiu

Gastao Gracie Jr. - moved to Sao Paulo and opened an academy...is it still open?

Ok the second part is...
apparently another student of Maeda named Luis Franca developed a style of bjj as well...is this still around, any students tracing their lineage to him? I think he had a student nicknamed Fadda...

I know it's a lot but if you can get around to it thanks!

 

[DonkeyKong]

Where did Rickson learn his Yoga?

Orlando Cani

This is absolutely priceless. Great addition, thanks a lot.

 

[DonkeyKong]

Ok Dk...one last question haha. Actually two.

1.) It seems like all the top Bjj guys come from either Helio's or Carlos' lineage. But they also had other brothers that learned from Maeda as well. Did these other brothers create their own schools or no? Is there any big name jiu-jitsu fighters that can trace their lineage to a brother besides Helio or Carlos?

Here's what I've found so far, but it's all on the internet so I'm not sure how reliable it is.

Osvaldo Gracie - 'best' of the brothers, defeated John Baldy who weighed 360 pounds while Osvaldo only weighed 140. I think I read somewhere that he taught at the main Gracie Academy.

Jorge, or George, Gracie - had a falling out w/ his brothers, strongest built, apparently choked out by Yasuichi Ono, a japanese judoka - here's a link that lists some of his students - Jiu

Gastao Gracie Jr. - moved to Sao Paulo and opened an academy...is it still open?

Ok the second part is...
apparently another student of Maeda named Luis Franca developed a style of bjj as well...is this still around, any students tracing their lineage to him? I think he had a student nicknamed Fadda...

I know it's a lot but if you can get around to it thanks!

George Gracie was a very very talented fighter, who was the family champion before Helio. What you have seems to be solid, I don't have any more information.

As for the Fadda family, they developed jiu jitsu parallel to the Gracies and held a rivalry, but they were much smaller and had nowhere near the knack for jiu jitsu that the Gracies had. They also did not have as much success as the Gracies.

Nowadays there are still Fadda-descended gyms in Brazil, but none of great repute. With massification came the standardization and nowadays there really only are two kinds of jiu jitsu: old-school, self defense jiu jitsu, and competition jiu jitsu, which is essentially the same wherever you go, be it descended from Gracies or Fadda.

 

[BaconTastesGood]

Fadda => Henrique Machado => Jacare de Souza

Curious if there's also a pure George Mehdi line (I know a lot of guys cross trained with him for judo, but wonder if there are any notables that were pure judo under him).

 

[Gumbi_guard]

Which of rickson's students are the best representation of his technique? I'm under Pedro sauer and love to hear pedros stories of rickson's technique.

 

[TheAth-ah-lete]

Q: How did you get to know Rickson? And when?


Orlando: Rickson had good information about my work and went to my academy to work with me. It was in 1986 up to the end of 1988. In 1989 he was already living in Los Angeles and invited me and my wife to a dinner. We had a good time there. At this time I didn't charge money to teach classes for athletes and one day Rickson went to USA to give a seminar with Rorion and some Gracies to the famous American actor Chuck Norris. Rickson brought me as a gift two beautiful real samurai swords since I could use it in my Kempo routines. At that time I used to perform Kempo routines using a Chinese wood sword, copy from a real samurai sword. It was a great present. Rickson brought me the swords and said a speech that I felt very emotional, since he said he was very grateful to what he learned from me.


Q: How was Rickson, as a student? How was his attitude? How was his talent in it? How fast and how deep did he learn it? What was he interested in, mainly? How long did he learn it from you?


Orlando: Rickson Gracie was the best student I had. He was the one to assimilate best the process. He's very serious and deeply concentrated. He stare at me hearing, and what I say penetrates him like a glove. He assimilates it deeply. It's very impressive. After two years of training with me, he almost make me cry, I was deeply touched. He told me: "Today you will be seated down and I will perform the class by myself". I felt like he was going to fly away from the window, how perfectly he did, specially smoothing. My work is very intense, standing - on the ground, standing - on the ground, there's no good or bad position, it's movement, for me movement is life, is action, it's energy.

Just thought I would post this from the link easy tiger posted.

 

[BJJ Coffee Drinker]

As for the Fadda family, they developed jiu jitsu parallel to the Gracies and held a rivalry, but they were much smaller and had nowhere near the knack for jiu jitsu that the Gracies had. They also did not have as much success as the Gracies.

Nowadays there are still Fadda-descended gyms in Brazil, but none of great repute. With massification came the standardization and nowadays there really only are two kinds of jiu jitsu: old-school, self defense jiu jitsu, and competition jiu jitsu, which is essentially the same wherever you go, be it descended from Gracies or Fadda.

Fadda's gyms descend down to Nova Uniao and the current most well known student descended from Fadda is Wendell Alexander from Brazil. Wendell Alexander merged with Andre Pederneiras (Carlson Gracie BB) to form Nova Uniao. THere are still a decent number of students around who may be able to trace back to Fadda and most of them are Wendell Alexander's students. COntrary to popular belief, there are lineages that will not include a Gracie in there. The side of BJJ coming from Oswaldo Fadda's side is quite unfortunate that it isn't well known as they developed it just as good as the Gracies but did not have the wealth or powerful influences to spread the art to such a magnitude the Gracies did. For now, I would say Wagney Fabiano is the most famous Fadda-gym descended BJJ guy as Wagney is a BB from Wendell Alexander. The lineage from Fadda goes right back to Mitsuyo Maeda refer to my sig for the entire thing

What I am interested in is what Andre Pederneiras's relationship with Carlson was as he got his BB from him. I don't hear too much about their relationship if any and wondered how Andre came to split/leave to form the new team.