Reverse-engineering Archie Moore's cross-armed guard

shpboris said:
Just 2-1 for a guy that is looking so solid. Interesting ... Looks like he had lot of potential - very fast hands, solid pop in his punches, good coordination. Also pretty fluid technical style.
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He hit alright, right towards the end he was working with John (trained by Archie and Billy Moore, but John didn't build Dee. Eugene Bryant did.) and both John and I were trying to refine his movements to produce maximum output with minimal effort. Dee had a habit of gassing when the pressure was on him, blowing his wad early without actually hurting the guy.
 
By the way--in line w/ Sinister's thinking on "cyborg boxers" (if I understand it correctly)--here is Archie himself on why he lost to Marciano

 
Yeah, they ain't too complicated.
 
Jhf884 said:
By the way--in line w/ Sinister's thinking on "cyborg boxers" (if I understand it correctly)--here is Archie himself on why he lost to Marciano



and Marciano himself on the same fight:

(Hauser)

You can't beat a guy like Moore by outthinking him, so why try?
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I love old boxing quotes, even more when there is multiple parties involved going back and forth over a fight Etc. I just love that stuff. Neat post. :icon_chee
 
Sinister said:
He hit alright, right towards the end he was working with John (trained by Archie and Billy Moore, but John didn't build Dee. Eugene Bryant did.) and both John and I were trying to refine his movements to produce maximum output with minimal effort. Dee had a habit of gassing when the pressure was on him, blowing his wad early without actually hurting the guy.
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Just shows the depth of the talent pool in boxing - guy with such a good potential (especially hand speed IMO), has just 2-1 record ... But I am not surprised actually - some guys with even loosing records look very good technically.
 
Jhf884 said:
By the way--in line w/ Sinister's thinking on "cyborg boxers" (if I understand it correctly)--here is Archie himself on why he lost to Marciano



and Marciano himself on the same fight:

(Hauser)

You can't beat a guy like Moore by outthinking him, so why try?
Click to expand...

 
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Those are some great quotes. Marciano was almost deliberately undefined. The way I heard it, his trainer taught him a few very basic techniques (like the crouched guard he would use when he started to get hit too much) and just let him throw the punches the way he wanted to. Marciano is like Maidana in a lot of ways. In other words, had Robert Garcia taught Maidana to box the way Cotto's trainers did for a few years, he would have lost what made him Maidana, and he would never have given Floyd such a rough fight. Same with somebody like John Molina--no way Molina knocks out Bey if he tries to box with him.

Some guys are just naturally bombers, and their trainers just have to know how to aim them.
 
shpboris said:
Just shows the depth of the talent pool in boxing - guy with such a good potential (especially hand speed IMO), has just 2-1 record ... But I am not surprised actually - some guys with even loosing records look very good technically.
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Like I said, the one guy he lost to is still undefeated right now, and had a lenghty amateur career, Dee had none. And he went the distance with that guy. The lone loss was just a matter of taking the wrong fight at the wrong time.
 
Very cool idea. I made a Naseem Hamed flowchart a while ago following similar principles.
twister+spinner.jpg
 
Discipulus said:
Those are some great quotes. Marciano was almost deliberately undefined. The way I heard it, his trainer taught him a few very basic techniques (like the crouched guard he would use when he started to get hit too much) and just let him throw the punches the way he wanted to. Marciano is like Maidana in a lot of ways. In other words, had Robert Garcia taught Maidana to box the way Cotto's trainers did for a few years, he would have lost what made him Maidana, and he would never have given Floyd such a rough fight. Same with somebody like John Molina--no way Molina knocks out Bey if he tries to box with him.

Some guys are just naturally bombers, and their trainers just have to know how to aim them.
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At the end of the day, its just a fist fight. Sometimes skill by itself is not enough...
 
Sinister said:
Like I said, the one guy he lost to is still undefeated right now, and had a lenghty amateur career, Dee had none. And he went the distance with that guy. The lone loss was just a matter of taking the wrong fight at the wrong time.
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I understand that.

But in your own words - "Dee had a habit of gassing when the pressure was on him, blowing his wad early without actually hurting the guy"

That is what is surprising in the sport of boxing. With lesser talent pool a guy gifted like that wouldn't even have opponents who can pressure him effectively until he is close to the upper level.
 
shpboris said:
I understand that.

But in your own words - "Dee had a habit of gassing when the pressure was on him, blowing his wad early without actually hurting the guy"

That is what is surprising in the sport of boxing. With lesser talent pool a guy gifted like that wouldn't even have opponents who can pressure him effectively until he is close to the upper level.
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The pressure wasn't from the opponent, it was from performing.
 
Sinister said:
boris - Nah, Dee quit. He was 2-1 as a Pro at the time. The one loss was to a kid who is still currently undefeated. He took the fight on short notice and the kid had much more amateur and pro experience. Dee lost a decision.
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How come he decided to stop fighting? Management or was it that one loss?
 
shpboris said:
Great sparring. But where is the cross armed defense ?
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You can see it a little bit in this one. Particularly the second round when he has Anthony on the ropes. He doesn't execute exactly as Archie did (no one ever did), but he takes a similar approach, slightly squared with his hands in front of him, one over the other:



fightingrabbit said:
How come he decided to stop fighting? Management or was it that one loss?
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I don't know. What a guy says and what reality is are often different.
 
Sinister said:
You can see it a little bit in this one. Particularly the second round when he has Anthony on the ropes. He doesn't execute exactly as Archie did (no one ever did), but he takes a similar approach, slightly squared with his hands in front of him, one over the other:





I don't know. What a guy says and what reality is are often different.
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Here he doesn't look THAT smooth (probably because the opponent is more experienced).

Who is his opponent ? Looks very solid as well - good movement, fast jab, not robotic ... Nice style.
 
BTW, Bert Cooper used some elements of this style as well, IMO.
Watch at 1:56 - 1:59 - f..cking amazing counter !

[YT]7SBXIc_yJA4[/YT]
 
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