Reverse-engineering Archie Moore's cross-armed guard

Discipulus

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Okay folks, this one took me a long time and a lot of work, but I'm pretty proud of it, and I thought it would be appreciated by the fine folks of the Standup forum. A few months ago I posted a thread on here looking to discuss the origins of and and the system behind Archie Moore's trademark cross-armed guard.

Well, I decided to do a two-part article on Bloody Elbow exploring the system. In part one I tried to suss out something of the history of the guard itself. You can find that here.

Today, however, I published part two, in which I run through Moore's actual application of the technique, and the various tactics it made available to him. Lots of GIFs, charts, and other nerdy stuff. I hope you enjoy, and please let me know what you think.

Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock

Yesterday, we explored the history behind the famous cross-armed guard of Archie Moore, also known as the Lock. As a basic technique, the cross-armed guard goes back into the early 19th century at least, but it was Archie Moore who made it his signature. Today we will look into his unique application.

Until the time of George Foreman, and later Bernard Hopkins, Moore was the oldest fighter to ever hold a world title, as good an endorsement of his defensive prowess as one could ask for. And while he may not have held his belt as long as those men, he spent far longer than either in the sport, winning his first professional bout in 1935 and fighting his last in 1963. In addition, Moore still holds, and probably always will, the record for most knockouts with an astounding 131 fights ended inside the distance, making him one of the most complete fighters to ever set foot in the squared circle.

All of this points to the one thing that truly made Moore great, that is, his mind. He was not an exceptional athlete, nor did he possess an iron jaw, nor incredible speed. What Moore possessed that gave him such outstanding longevity was a system. There was no situation that could arise in the ring that Moore did not have a prepared and meticulously trained answer to. In a 1955 interview with Sports Illustrated, Moore said of his fighting philosophy, "I try to build a bridge. With each punch I try to build a bridge so I can escape over it if something goes wrong. That's what you call escapology. That's what I call escapology."

Moore had many such "bridges" in his system. In an attempt to "reverse engineer" Archie's game, I've put together one of my geekiest creations yet. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Archie Moore flow chart.

lock_flow_chart_medium.png


Now, before we explore some of these paths, I should point out that this is by no means a complete layout of Moore's system. In this chart we have his set responses to three basic punches--the jab, cross, and hook, and each path assumes that the opponent has led with the jab first. It doesn't account for such subtleties as range and angle, which would play a huge part in determining Moore's punch selection. Don't let this fool you into thinking that Moore was at a loss if his man started his assault with a hook, or a lead right; likewise, don't let the fact that my chart doesn't include Archie's various leads and feints lead you to believe that he was strictly a counter fighter. In 219 trips to the prizefighting ring, Moore made it very clear that he had a plan for every eventuality, and a tool to account for every possible opening.

It would simply be too difficult to put together, and likely to read a chart that covered every technique in Moore's vast system. Nonetheless, this pared-down version gives a pretty good idea of Moore's basic defenses and counters against an average, run-of-the-mill boxer.

Many Answers

One of the keys to Moore's incredible success was the number of options to which he could turn in response to each attack from his opponent. In 1958, Moore defended his light heavyweight title for the 7th time against Yvon Durelle, and in the first round paid the price for using too predictable a defense against the tough Canadian.

moore_knocked_down_medium.gif


About a minute into round one Durelle caught Moore cold. Before this sequence Moore had already settled into a predictable pattern, and you can see the continuation of that pattern at the beginning of this GIF. Durelle, right hand cocked, prods Archie with a jab, and the Mongoose slips it to the outside, attempting to counter with a right hand. To his immense credit, Durelle tries the jab again, and drops a perfectly timed right hand immediately behind it. Moore slips the jab the same exact way, perhaps looking for another counter right, and puts his head right in the path of Durelle's punch.

This is the risk of having only one answer to a given threat. Why choose this, an example of Moore getting dropped, as the first in an article about Moore's prowess? Well, Archie Moore was not the kind of man to make the same mistake twice. For those of you who have never seen this fight: Moore, despite looking all but dead after that right hand above, got up, adapted, and fought ten more rounds before knocking Durelle out (though he would go down twice more before the end of the first).

Once Durelle proved he could put a killer punch behind that jab, Moore became obsessed with defeating it. First, he began slipping the jab to the inside, preventing it from blinding him to a potential follow-up right hand. Throughout round two he began circling to Durelle's right, ostensibly moving into his right hand, but actually moving away from the left he needed to set it up, and therefore forcing Durelle to either constantly adjust or else throw a naked right hand that proved much easier to dodge. Of course, Moore's defense alone didn't get him 131 knockouts--his counters did, and Moore didn't even need a half round of recovery before he started countering with ill intent. Let' go to the flow chart.

lock_flow_chart_3_medium.png


Slipping inside the jab, Moore ends up with his head slightly forward and his weight on his left foot. From this position, his left hook is cocked and loaded, and Moore has never been shy about throwing it.

moore_inside_slip_medium.gif


Note how Moore is constantly pivoting to Durelle's right, even as he throws his punches and avoids those of his opponent. This keeps Durelle from setting his feet and throwing combinations of punches while Moore recovers from the brutal first round.

Continues at Bloody Elbow...
 
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Really impressive work, man. Did you come up with this all on your own or did you get in contact with people Moore trained with?

Either way it's incredible, really thorough stuff. Makes me wanna come up with a system for kyokushin!
 
That flowchart is impressively detailed. Awesome shit, mane.
 
Funny thing is when I first started boxing, I naturally resorted to this guard long before I knew who Archie Moore was. It's a pretty intuitive defense.
 
Really impressive work, man. Did you come up with this all on your own or did you get in contact with people Moore trained with?

Either way it's incredible, really thorough stuff. Makes me wanna come up with a system for kyokushin!

Thanks!

No, this was all "reverse-engineering"--I just figured out a rough form of the system through observation. However I am hoping to get in touch with Archie's son Billy soon. I'd love to learn about the system, and about Archie's history with various trainers.

Over analyzing 101?

Hey, there are plenty of BJJ guys who advocate flow charts. I've never done one before, but now that I did one for Moore's system, I can see how it might actually make a useful learning tool for the "thinkers" among us. That's not meant to be a slight, either. I just mean to say that, for people who really need to understand something to learn and use it effectively, a systematic breakdown like this seems useful.

Funny thing is when I first started boxing, I naturally resorted to this guard long before I knew who Archie Moore was. It's a pretty intuitive defense.

It is. I tend to use it when I'm dead tired in sparring, because I can still see my opponent while protecting my chin from straight punches. I don't have any kind of nuanced use for it, but it's a very practical form of cover for when you need to shell up.
 
Dee was the closest thing to "The Lock" I'd ever seen in person, as a system:



That's a good video because Bleu was still pretty green, so Dee spent the whole first round primarily doing defensive footwork, then asserted himself more as time went on.
 
Sin (and Disc), I figured you might know the answer here:

I believe Eddie Futch was Ken Norton's first pro trainer, and I know that Norton used the Lock system (though not as ably as Moore, of course). Did Futch have a particular system he taught? Or did he just know how to teach this style as well?

As an aside, Hiawatha Grey also trained Charley Burley, who did NOT use the lock (I don't think); Burley did describe himself and Archie as both being "bobbers and weavers;" interestingly, a lot of Futch's best pupils were also "bobbers and weavers."
 
Over analyzing 101?

Its an analysis, what do you want him to do. "So Archie Moore was like a boxer or something, a long time ago. He used to cross his arms and punch people and shit" :rolleyes:

Hey, there are plenty of BJJ guys who advocate flow charts. I've never done one before, but now that I did one for Moore's system, I can see how it might actually make a useful learning tool for the "thinkers" among us. That's not meant to be a slight, either. I just mean to say that, for people who really need to understand something to learn and use it effectively, a systematic breakdown like this seems useful.

As a guy who mainly does BJJ I love the flow charts! Book marked the article so I can read it again, awesome stuff!

Any Sherdog insider tips as to who future system breakdowns will be on?
 
Dee was the closest thing to "The Lock" I'd ever seen in person, as a system:



That's a good video because Bleu was still pretty green, so Dee spent the whole first round primarily doing defensive footwork, then asserted himself more as time went on.


Great sparring. But where is the cross armed defense ?

P.S.
Dee is a very athletic guy ...
 
Sin (and Disc), I figured you might know the answer here:

I believe Eddie Futch was Ken Norton's first pro trainer, and I know that Norton used the Lock system (though not as ably as Moore, of course). Did Futch have a particular system he taught? Or did he just know how to teach this style as well?

As an aside, Hiawatha Grey also trained Charley Burley, who did NOT use the lock (I don't think); Burley did describe himself and Archie as both being "bobbers and weavers;" interestingly, a lot of Futch's best pupils were also "bobbers and weavers."

I don't think it's confirmed that Grey trained Burley, though that does make an interesting link. Even if he did train him, however, it wasn't from an early time like it was for Archie.
 
Its an analysis, what do you want him to do. "So Archie Moore was like a boxer or something, a long time ago. He used to cross his arms and punch people and shit" :rolleyes:



As a guy who mainly does BJJ I love the flow charts! Book marked the article so I can read it again, awesome stuff!

Any Sherdog insider tips as to who future system breakdowns will be on?

I'm leaning toward Brendan Ingle.
 
Sin (and Disc), I figured you might know the answer here:

I believe Eddie Futch was Ken Norton's first pro trainer, and I know that Norton used the Lock system (though not as ably as Moore, of course). Did Futch have a particular system he taught? Or did he just know how to teach this style as well?

As an aside, Hiawatha Grey also trained Charley Burley, who did NOT use the lock (I don't think); Burley did describe himself and Archie as both being "bobbers and weavers;" interestingly, a lot of Futch's best pupils were also "bobbers and weavers."

Grey didnt actually "train" Burley. He functioned as a hired gun cornerman very often. I forget the names of Burley's actual trainers but Dadi knows them. Two guys who built him from his amateur days. It just got to the point where Burley didnt need any teaching, just a good set of eyes around.

Futch obviously knew something. I know he actually saw the fight between Moore and Burley as well because he spoke about it. But what he taught is what I refer to as the actual "Philly Shell" because it looks a lot like the Crab system, and the fighters he taught it to initially (Frazier, Briscoe) were Philly-based. But they were more aggressive, like Dee above. Not so much counter-punchers. Occasionally theyd switch to a more frontal position with both arms up like Moore did as well. But the Lock is a little different, the last guys to use that as taught by Moore himself, or his Son Billy...were Foreman and Gilbert Baptist.

Great sparring. But where is the cross armed defense ?

P.S.
Dee is a very athletic guy ...

I dont know if I have footage of Dee using it, because he only every really did on the inside. But this was more about similar defensive maneuvers into the counters. That was what was very similar. But I'll look today to see if I have one of him using that position at all.
 
I dont know if I have footage of Dee using it, because he only every really did on the inside. But this was more about similar defensive maneuvers into the counters. That was what was very similar. But I'll look today to see if I have one of him using that position at all.

Thanks ...

Does he still train\compete ? What is his record ?
He looks very solid both technically and athletically.
 
Grey didnt actually "train" Burley. He functioned as a hired gun cornerman very often. I forget the names of Burley's actual trainers but Dadi knows them. Two guys who built him from his amateur days. It just got to the point where Burley didnt need any teaching, just a good set of eyes around.

Futch obviously knew something. I know he actually saw the fight between Moore and Burley as well because he spoke about it. But what he taught is what I refer to as the actual "Philly Shell" because it looks a lot like the Crab system, and the fighters he taught it to initially (Frazier, Briscoe) were Philly-based. But they were more aggressive, like Dee above. Not so much counter-punchers. Occasionally theyd switch to a more frontal position with both arms up like Moore did as well. But the Lock is a little different, the last guys to use that as taught by Moore himself, or his Son Billy...were Foreman and Gilbert Baptist.



I dont know if I have footage of Dee using it, because he only every really did on the inside. But this was more about similar defensive maneuvers into the counters. That was what was very similar. But I'll look today to see if I have one of him using that position at all.
OK--Burley's early trainers in Pittsburgh (per Otty) were 2 guys named Leonard Payne and Howard Turner. Based on what I've read of Otty, though, I thought Hiawatha was much more than a mere hired gun, though the turmoil of Burley's management situation meant that it might have seemed like a "hired gun" situation. Hell, even w/ Moore, Hiawatha would only come in for the big fights where Moore thought he might need him.

So if Futch (who knew a thing or two!) didn't teach the lock, who the hell DID teach it to Norton?

And thanks for the info!
 
boris - Nah, Dee quit. He was 2-1 as a Pro at the time. The one loss was to a kid who is still currently undefeated. He took the fight on short notice and the kid had much more amateur and pro experience. Dee lost a decision.

Jhf - Yes those were the guys. Hiawatha was always very highly regarded among Pros he worked with, but he didnt build Burley's style is what I was getting at. He was an invaluable cornerman. Its never been clear how much influence he had with Burley or how strong his presence was in any training camps. Moore and Hiawatha's relationship was always reported as hot and cold. I've always suspected that was due to Moore being overbearingly narcissistic at times. But Archie definitely had Hiawatha around for many training camps, especially if he had high regard for his opponent.

Norton's style was more similar to Briscoe's than Moore's. But Norton had the disposition of a ccounter puncher and Briscoe a brawler. Futch was the source of that. Norton was kind of like a cross between Briscoe and Foster.
 
Okay folks, this one took me a long time and a lot of work, but I'm pretty proud of it, and I thought it would be appreciated by the fine folks of the Standup forum. A few months ago I posted a thread on here looking to discuss the origins of and and the system behind Archie Moore's trademark cross-armed guard.

Well, I decided to do a two-part article on Bloody Elbow exploring the system. In part one I tried to suss out something of the history of the guard itself. You can find that here.

Today, however, I published part two, in which I run through Moore's actual application of the technique, and the various tactics it made available to him. Lots of GIFs, charts, and other nerdy stuff. I hope you enjoy, and please let me know what you think.

Solving Styles: Reverse Engineering Archie Moore and the Lock

Yesterday, we explored the history behind the famous cross-armed guard of Archie Moore, also known as the Lock. As a basic technique, the cross-armed guard goes back into the early 19th century at least, but it was Archie Moore who made it his signature. Today we will look into his unique application.

Until the time of George Foreman, and later Bernard Hopkins, Moore was the oldest fighter to ever hold a world title, as good an endorsement of his defensive prowess as one could ask for. And while he may not have held his belt as long as those men, he spent far longer than either in the sport, winning his first professional bout in 1935 and fighting his last in 1963. In addition, Moore still holds, and probably always will, the record for most knockouts with an astounding 131 fights ended inside the distance, making him one of the most complete fighters to ever set foot in the squared circle.

All of this points to the one thing that truly made Moore great, that is, his mind. He was not an exceptional athlete, nor did he possess an iron jaw, nor incredible speed. What Moore possessed that gave him such outstanding longevity was a system. There was no situation that could arise in the ring that Moore did not have a prepared and meticulously trained answer to. In a 1955 interview with Sports Illustrated, Moore said of his fighting philosophy, "I try to build a bridge. With each punch I try to build a bridge so I can escape over it if something goes wrong. That's what you call escapology. That's what I call escapology."

Moore had many such "bridges" in his system. In an attempt to "reverse engineer" Archie's game, I've put together one of my geekiest creations yet. Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Archie Moore flow chart.

lock_flow_chart_medium.png


Now, before we explore some of these paths, I should point out that this is by no means a complete layout of Moore's system. In this chart we have his set responses to three basic punches--the jab, cross, and hook, and each path assumes that the opponent has led with the jab first. It doesn't account for such subtleties as range and angle, which would play a huge part in determining Moore's punch selection. Don't let this fool you into thinking that Moore was at a loss if his man started his assault with a hook, or a lead right; likewise, don't let the fact that my chart doesn't include Archie's various leads and feints lead you to believe that he was strictly a counter fighter. In 219 trips to the prizefighting ring, Moore made it very clear that he had a plan for every eventuality, and a tool to account for every possible opening.

It would simply be too difficult to put together, and likely to read a chart that covered every technique in Moore's vast system. Nonetheless, this pared-down version gives a pretty good idea of Moore's basic defenses and counters against an average, run-of-the-mill boxer.

Many Answers

One of the keys to Moore's incredible success was the number of options to which he could turn in response to each attack from his opponent. In 1958, Moore defended his light heavyweight title for the 7th time against Yvon Durelle, and in the first round paid the price for using too predictable a defense against the tough Canadian.

moore_knocked_down_medium.gif


About a minute into round one Durelle caught Moore cold. Before this sequence Moore had already settled into a predictable pattern, and you can see the continuation of that pattern at the beginning of this GIF. Durelle, right hand cocked, prods Archie with a jab, and the Mongoose slips it to the outside, attempting to counter with a right hand. To his immense credit, Durelle tries the jab again, and drops a perfectly timed right hand immediately behind it. Moore slips the jab the same exact way, perhaps looking for another counter right, and puts his head right in the path of Durelle's punch.

This is the risk of having only one answer to a given threat. Why choose this, an example of Moore getting dropped, as the first in an article about Moore's prowess? Well, Archie Moore was not the kind of man to make the same mistake twice. For those of you who have never seen this fight: Moore, despite looking all but dead after that right hand above, got up, adapted, and fought ten more rounds before knocking Durelle out (though he would go down twice more before the end of the first).

Once Durelle proved he could put a killer punch behind that jab, Moore became obsessed with defeating it. First, he began slipping the jab to the inside, preventing it from blinding him to a potential follow-up right hand. Throughout round two he began circling to Durelle's right, ostensibly moving into his right hand, but actually moving away from the left he needed to set it up, and therefore forcing Durelle to either constantly adjust or else throw a naked right hand that proved much easier to dodge. Of course, Moore's defense alone didn't get him 131 knockouts--his counters did, and Moore didn't even need a half round of recovery before he started countering with ill intent. Let' go to the flow chart.

lock_flow_chart_3_medium.png


Slipping inside the jab, Moore ends up with his head slightly forward and his weight on his left foot. From this position, his left hook is cocked and loaded, and Moore has never been shy about throwing it.

moore_inside_slip_medium.gif


Note how Moore is constantly pivoting to Durelle's right, even as he throws his punches and avoids those of his opponent. This keeps Durelle from setting his feet and throwing combinations of punches while Moore recovers from the brutal first round.

Continues at Bloody Elbow...

Great post. I'll post more detailed thoughts later.
 
boris - Nah, Dee quit. He was 2-1 as a Pro at the time. The one loss was to a kid who is still currently undefeated. He took the fight on short notice and the kid had much more amateur and pro experience. Dee lost a decision.

Just 2-1 for a guy that is looking so solid. Interesting ... Looks like he had lot of potential - very fast hands, solid pop in his punches, good coordination. Also pretty fluid technical style.
 
I'm leaning toward Brendan Ingle.

Imagine that flow chart!

Disc, excellent thread/post. Actually expanded and printed that chart as it's difficult to interpret on a monitor screen. Will take some time to read, re-read, but this is excellent work and thank you for the contribution!
 
Imagine that flow chart!

Disc, excellent thread/post. Actually expanded and printed that chart as it's difficult to interpret on a monitor screen. Will take some time to read, re-read, but this is excellent work and thank you for the contribution!

Thanks, man! Looking at it, it seems really complex, but the more I think about it, I wish I'd taken the time to build a really comprehensive map of Archie's counters. There are details such as range and angle that can't really be reflected in a chart like that, unfortunately. It's a neat way to think about fighting, though, and I think it reflects the systematic nature of Archie Moore's game pretty well.

Yes, I'm both looking forward to and dreading the Ingle chart. I think with him I'm going to have to break the pathways down by concept rather than specific technique, as his guys all had much more of a free-flowing approach, systematic though it was.
 
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