Regarding the guillotine

[FinBJJ]

Today in sparring we started standing up. I'm still quite green in stand up, but kept hitting the guillotine choke after sprawling.
The thing is, one of my sparring partners grunted in pain when I put pressure on the choke. He tapped and I asked what was wrong. He said it hurt his neck muscles like hell. We kept rolling and I caught him again and he held the back of his neck again.
My understanding is that neck cranks aren't allowed in BJJ. Would this be considered one? Also there must be something wrong with my technique if it strains the neck instead of choking. Any pointers?

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Yeah something wrong with your technique........ Sometimes my instructor says this is a "choke" that you "crank" on.:wink:

 

[Mad Ruthless]

Which style of guillotine are you using when this happens?

 

[rarmonio8920]

Ask your instructor, ask your older students.

Obviously, we can't see what you're doing. If I had to make a guess though, you're going for the Guillotine, he's tucking his chin in, but you're still wrenching the head/neck area somehow. It's just a guess.

But a guillotine should have the blade of your wrist going into the front/side of his neck and exerting a lot of pressure there. Some people do it like a blood choke, cutting off the carotid, while others do it like an air choke and jam their forearm into the adam's apple.

See your instructor to avoid having improper technique and potentially hurting your partners.

 

[spannered]

There's a very obvious difference between a neck crank and a guillotine. If you are locking it up and twisting the lower jaw, you're cranking. It's perfectly legal, but not something you should do regularly in the gym out of courtesy. If a new guy keeps trying to crank me, I'll try and twist his head off to show how painful it is. It can do your neck in for days.

You could also be doing a choke guillotine, where your forearm is horizontal to the ground and it's like a bar pushing your eso****us inwards. You'll get a tap pretty quickly as this is also pretty painful.

Really though, try and lock up with good technique: the inside of the wrist should be cutting off the main artery on the side of the neck and the bicep cuts off the other. The blood supply stops and you'll get the tap without the risk of a strained neck or damaged windpipe.

What till you're at the receiving end of cranks...you'll see pretty quickly why it's not really courteous to use them in training

 

[Einarr]

Marcelotine or nothing. :icon_chee

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Or it could just be the other guy being obtuse. Anytime you grab the neck, there will be some element of neck pain.

 

[100%Jiu-Jitsu]

Marcelotine or nothing. :icon_chee

Despite our differences, that is one thing we can agree on 100%.

Do it like this, OP.

 

[PointyShinyBurn]

My understanding is that neck cranks aren't allowed in BJJ. Would this be considered one? Also there must be something wrong with my technique if it strains the neck instead of choking. Any pointers?

In IBJJF rules, what's illegal is "Spinal lock without choke". Neck cranks that are incidental to choking him are therefore comp legal, but might well be considered somewhat unnecessary in the gym.

 

[Vitamin C]

Or it could just be the other guy being obtuse. Anytime you grab the neck, there will be some element of neck pain.

This was my immediate thought. Don't like getting caught, blame it on a crank.

In IBJJF rules, what's illegal is "Spinal lock without choke". Neck cranks that are incidental to choking him are therefore comp legal, but might well be considered somewhat unnecessary in the gym.

This is also important to understand. By all means, tighten up your technique until there is little crank involved, but so long as it's a legitimate attempt at a choke it is legal.

 

[junco]

I used to be way too hesitant to try for guillotines, and always made sure I was only applying a blood choke without applying any sort of neck crank or trachea choke. I had always heard and been taught that guillotines should be 100% blood chokes.

Lately, I've been hitting it as either an air choke or a blood choke. I'm sure sometimes it ends up as a crank as well. Depends on my positioning, my opponent's ability to fight it, and my opponent's unwillingness to tap.

If you think your positioning for the choke is correct (and others agree), then don't worry too much about whether that one dude said his neck felt sore. If everyone you try it on says it's a crank and not a choke, then maybe consider changing up your approach.

 

[Drew Foster]

I used to be way too hesitant to try for guillotines, and always made sure I was only applying a blood choke without applying any sort of neck crank or trachea choke. I had always heard and been taught that guillotines should be 100% blood chokes.

Lately, I've been hitting it as either an air choke or a blood choke. I'm sure sometimes it ends up as a crank as well. Depends on my positioning, my opponent's ability to fight it, and my opponent's unwillingness to tap.

If you think your positioning for the choke is correct (and others agree), then don't worry too much about whether that one dude said his neck felt sore. If everyone you try it on says it's a crank and not a choke, then maybe consider changing up your approach.

I have spent a ton of time on head-and-arm chokes and have 2 feelings on it.

1. Ryan Hall's philosophy as expressed on his DVD on arm triangle style chokes: With proper angle and position you should be able to put the person to sleep. if it hurts that's okay, as long as the pain is incidental. So basically as long as you're not hurting them instead of choking them, it's all good. Definitely always aim to finish properly, and you shouldn't need to squeeze too much. Just maintain pressure and wait.

2. It's a contact sport: Some chokes such as the guillotine and the brabo/darce tend to hurt, no matter how well they're done. it is what it is, and we're doing a contact sport. People are going to get their necks tweaked a little bit from time to time. Unless someone is just trying to break my neck with zero choke I'm not going to ever complain about it.

Vitamin C and Ice 9 really nailed it with their answers I think.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

Vitamin C and Ice 9 really nailed it with their answers I think.

I demand recognition as I said the same thing but earlier in the thread!!:icon_cry2:redface::icon_evil

 

[boyo1991]

Ask your instructor, ask your older students.

Obviously, we can't see what you're doing. If I had to make a guess though, you're going for the Guillotine, he's tucking his chin in, but you're still wrenching the head/neck area somehow. It's just a guess.

But a guillotine should have the blade of your wrist going into the front/side of his neck and exerting a lot of pressure there. Some people do it like a blood choke, cutting off the carotid, while others do it like an air choke and jam their forearm into the adam's apple.

See your instructor to avoid having improper technique and potentially hurting your partners.

this.

but if you feel his chin tucked in, you can still do it.. its just annoying as hell.. take a knuckle from your middle finder and jam it into the jawline, thats just a mean version of it to get someones head up.. while practicing, use a bladded hand, its not as rough, but usually just enough discomfort to get their head to move up enough to sink in the choke..

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

If the guy is tucking his chin, the issue lies more with his faulty defense than your offense. If the best your defense is offering is making the position dangerous to your own neck, its not something that should be relied on.

In other words, keep choking their chin until they learn to actually defend the choke. Don't reinforce bad habits by stopping.

 

[boyo1991]

If the guy is tucking his chin, the issue lies more with his faulty defense than your offense. If the best your defense is offering is making the position dangerous to your own neck, its not something that should be relied on.

In other words, keep choking their chin until they learn to actually defend the choke. Don't reinforce bad habits by stopping.

this is a bit more of a brutal lesson and can really cause damage dont you think?

if they dont defend the choke properly, you can still make sure bad habits dont insue without possible long term damage..

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

You're overestimating the amount of damage choking the chin will do. You're not going to send them to the hospital, they might be sore for awhile and have trouble chewing but its not THAT bad.

And again, its their fault for not defending the choke properly. The only time I would consider it excessive is if they are so new they don't understand how to defend.

 

[FIGHTING TALK]

There is certainly nothing wrong with neck cranking ppl in training.

Just the same as an armbar, if its a new guy you must be very careful, but anyone you are comfortable enough to armbar quickly, like seated armbars from kob and the like, should know when to tap to a neck crank. So therefore you should slap on the neck crank just as it were any sub that in its Nth degree would cause an injury, not a sleep.

Don't be reckless, that goes for all and every situation, but you must believe in your training partners enough to let them figure out for themselves when to tap. Don't let their stubborness interfere with the fact you are learning jiu jitsu, and learning how to submit people in competition.

 

[boyo1991]

You're overestimating the amount of damage choking the chin will do. You're not going to send them to the hospital, they might be sore for awhile and have trouble chewing but its not THAT bad.

And again, its their fault for not defending the choke properly. The only time I would consider it excessive is if they are so new they don't understand how to defend.

im not meaning choking the chin, im speaking of a neck crank that insues with that... however i guess i dont use it that much either way.. so i cant say for sure, just seems more torturous lol.