Rabbinical judaism and Christianity relationship (theological discussion)

[Rod1]

Im a catholic-raised agnostic, but the other day in another social venue, someone was talking about christian mythos, basically who was the highest ranking angel.

Some individuals were talking about archangels and someone mentioned that they were actually pretty low on the angelic hierarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

Myself not being quite versed in such matters, i stopped just to point out that even if archangels are pretty low in the angelic hierarchy, it didnt mattered since Michael was the highest ranked angelic being as commander of the armies of god in the apocalypse and slayer of satan.

Then i someone, which i assume was a jew claimed that it was not Michael, but an angel called Metatron which was the highest ranked one, and that since christianity was nothing but a spin-off of judaism, it would apply.

Now, i would had heard this transformer sounding angelic being if it was that relevant to the christian faith, but its non-existent, i dont think Islam has anything to do with it either. Which immediatly lead me to believe that it was a product of rabbinical judaism not ancient judaism.

Which leads to the discussion, there are plenty of christians in this board, and hopefully people versed in other faiths will be able to bring light on this.

How much does Rabbinical judaism and Christianity overlap? which jewish teachings are true for christians and which are not? The Talmud which is like the new testament for jews was written way after christianity branched out, but some jews claim it was actually pretty old but it was passed as oral tradition.

How true is rabbinical judaism to ancient judaism? would you consider rabbinical judaism as the root of christianism or just another branch of ancient judaism like christianism? Who the fuck is metatron and why is that name so weird, google shows its origins but doesnt explains much.

To atheists. Do you think that religious people discussing about angelic beings is paramount of people discussing about comic books?

 

[dontsnitch]

What I've repeatedly noted is that Christianity is always attacked on the basis of the OT, but Judaism, which still espouses the Torah is hardly even mentioned. Sure, the Talmud and new oral traditions have moved them away from the Old Law, but how much more should they be attacked than Christianity...

I don't know anything about angels.

 

[Rod1]

What I've repeatedly noted is that Christianity is always attacked on the basis of the OT, but Judaism, which still espouses the Torah is hardly even mentioned. Sure, the Talmud and new oral traditions have moved them away from the Old Law, but how much more should they be attacked than Christianity...

I don't know anything about angels.

Christianism is attacked because a lot of protestant churches take the OT either too literal or too relevant.

 

[dontsnitch]

Christianism is attacked because a lot of protestant churches take the OT either too literal or too relevant.

How much more that true is that for Orthodox Jews? Their text is literally the Torah.

 

[Zankou]

Interesting subject.

Metatron is of course a non-Biblical name. People dispute its origins, but most scholars think it's obviously a Greek word that the rabbis somehow adapted as the name for a sort of subsidiary divine entity. It has weird gnostic associations, probably Platonic mystical associations as well. A ton of Talmudic material is weird Greco-Roman and Mesopotamian material that the rabbis reworked.

An important point to remember is that Judaism was centered on the Temple in Jerusalem and on the priestly and political ambitions for a divine kingdom led by a Davidic King, restored. The Jews were sort of seen as the Taliban of their era, fanatics who constantly sought to violently expel the infidels/corruption, impose YHWH's true faith, and cleanse the land of the unbelievers.

After Rome took over the region, there were three Jewish wars. In the third Roman Jewish war, the Romans basically called three-strikes on the situation, straight Grozny'd Jerusalem, razing it to the ground and permanently expelling all the Jews. They then decimated all the local population. This left Judaism primarily a Babylon-centered religion afterwards, forced to create a new type of faith centered on rabbis rather than priests who administered temple sacrifice and divine kings who exercised political dominion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

In my view, this was the event that finally split Christianity from Judaism, and began rabbinical Judaism as a distinctive new religion, bearing relatively little resemblance to its historical ancestors.

 

[RespectableDenizen]

What I've repeatedly noted is that Christianity is always attacked on the basis of the OT, but Judaism, which still espouses the Torah is hardly even mentioned. Sure, the Talmud and new oral traditions have moved them away from the Old Law, but how much more should they be attacked than Christianity...

I don't know anything about angels.

Doggy dog, you've potentially set up a thread hijack....

 

[Rod1]

Interesting subject.

Metatron is of course a non-Biblical name. People dispute its origins, but most scholars think it's obviously a Greek word that the rabbis somehow adapted as the name for a sort of subsidiary divine entity. It has weird gnostic associations, probably Platonic mystical associations as well. A ton of Talmudic material is weird Greco-Roman and Mesopotamian material that the rabbis reworked.

An important point to remember is that Judaism was centered on the Temple in Jerusalem and on the priestly and political ambitions for a divine kingdom led by a Davidic King, restored. The Jews were sort of seen as the Taliban of their era, fanatics who constantly sought to violently expel the infidels/corruption, impose YHWH's true faith, and cleanse the land of the unbelievers.

After Rome took over the region, there were three Jewish wars. In the third Roman Jewish war, the Romans basically called three-strikes on the situation, straight Grozny'd Jerusalem, razing it to the ground and permanently expelling all the Jews. They then decimated all the local population. This left Judaism primarily a Babylon-centered religion afterwards, forced to create a new type of faith centered on rabbis rather than priests who administered temple sacrifice and divine kings who exercised political dominion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt

In my view, this was the event that finally split Christianity from Judaism, and began rabbinical Judaism as a distinctive new religion, bearing relatively little resemblance to its historical ancestors.

I find it weird that despite the few mentions of the new testament of angelic beings the major 3 abrahamic mythos have such extensive and detailed information about them.

To my understanding in christianity God doesnt needs angels, he simply works his miracles through the holy ghost.

 

[Rod1]

What I've repeatedly noted is that Christianity is always attacked on the basis of the OT, but Judaism, which still espouses the Torah is hardly even mentioned. Sure, the Talmud and new oral traditions have moved them away from the Old Law, but how much more should they be attacked than Christianity...

I don't know anything about angels.

Because thankfully, most jews like christians are secular.

 

[Zankou]

I find it weird that despite the few mentions of the new testament of angelic beings the major 3 abrahamic mythos have such extensive and detailed information about them.

To my understanding in christianity God doesnt needs angels, he simply works his miracles through the holy ghost.

They fulfill a function in monotheism of explaining how God interacts in the world while also being all unitary and distant. In polytheism, you just had lesser gods do this. In monotheism, instead of lesser gods you call them angels. In mystical/gnostic/platonic contexts, they are emanations. In Christianity, there is one mega-emanation, the logos. The others are lame by comparison.

 

[M3t4tr0n]

Im a catholic-raised agnostic, but the other day in another social venue, someone was talking about christian mythos, basically who was the highest ranking angel.

Some individuals were talking about archangels and someone mentioned that they were actually pretty low on the angelic hierarchy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_angelic_hierarchy

Myself not being quite versed in such matters, i stopped just to point out that even if archangels are pretty low in the angelic hierarchy, it didnt mattered since Michael was the highest ranked angelic being as commander of the armies of god in the apocalypse and slayer of satan.

Then i someone, which i assume was a jew claimed that it was not Michael, but an angel called Metatron which was the highest ranked one, and that since christianity was nothing but a spin-off of judaism, it would apply.

Now, i would had heard this transformer sounding angelic being if it was that relevant to the christian faith, but its non-existent, i dont think Islam has anything to do with it either. Which immediatly lead me to believe that it was a product of rabbinical judaism not ancient judaism.

Which leads to the discussion, there are plenty of christians in this board, and hopefully people versed in other faiths will be able to bring light on this.

How much does Rabbinical judaism and Christianity overlap? which jewish teachings are true for christians and which are not? The Talmud which is like the new testament for jews was written way after christianity branched out, but some jews claim it was actually pretty old but it was passed as oral tradition.

How true is rabbinical judaism to ancient judaism? would you consider rabbinical judaism as the root of christianism or just another branch of ancient judaism like christianism? Who the fuck is metatron and why is that name so weird, google shows its origins but doesnt explains much.

To atheists. Do you think that religious people discussing about angelic beings is paramount of people discussing about comic books?

I am the highest ranked, but all I do is surf sherdog now days.

 

[IDL]

I am the highest ranked, but all I do is surf sherdog now days.

How the mighty have fallen

 

[M3t4tr0n]

How the mighty have fallen

Everyone's pretty bored up here

 

[Rod1]

They fulfill a function in monotheism of explaining how God interacts in the world while also being all unitary and distant. In polytheism, you just had lesser gods do this. In monotheism, instead of lesser gods you call them angels. In mystical/gnostic/platonic contexts, they are emanations. In Christianity, there is one mega-emanation, the logos. The others are lame by comparison.

But isnt that the function of the holy trinity? God needs something done an he appears in the form of a Dove, in the old testament in the form of a Bush.

Also it wouldnt make much sense of angels as polytheistic beings since they are not really associated with a particular area, except Azrael in Islam.

I think the saints and the different apparititions of virgin mary serve more as polytheist proxies.

At least in catholicism, Judas Thaddeus is probably more popular than Jesus where i live.

 

[Rod1]

I am the highest ranked, but all I do is surf sherdog now days.

No fucking wonder i heard that name somewhere.

How is that conquest of cybertron going?

 

[ryan3434]

Wouldn't Satan be the highest of angels?

 

[M3t4tr0n]

No fucking wonder i heard that name somewhere.

How is that conquest of cybertron going?

We gave up on that cause after the second movie.

 

[Zankou]

But isnt that the function of the holy trinity? God needs something done an he appears in the form of a Dove, in the old testament in the form of a Bush.

Also it wouldnt make much sense of angels as polytheistic beings since they are not really associated with a particular area, except Azrael in Islam.

I think the saints and the different apparititions of virgin mary serve more as polytheist proxies.

At least in catholicism, Judas Thaddeus is probably more popular than Jesus where i live.

Yeah that's why I say you had a mega-emanation in Christianity. Islam needs angels to make sure God doesn't insult his majesty by taking on a limited human form, but he still needs to act in our world, so angels and such. In Judaism, it's more a bunch of minor emanations. This deal:

 

[Rod1]

Metatron vs Michael, make it happen Dana.

 

[Zankou]

Wouldn't Satan be the highest of angels?

Funny you ask, we (under the influence of Christianity) always think of Satan as a Biblical figure, but that's based on a set of after-the-fact Christian arguments that identify Satan with various figures like the serpent.

In the OT, Satan just means 'adversary,' a generic title that is applied to anyone. It is *never* an actual proper name. In two books of the OT, however, it is used as an epithet (a description), meaning "the adversary." So in Job, when it says "Satan tempted Job," the Hebrew actually says "the satan" tempted Job, meaning the adversary. If Satan was a proper name, there wouldn't be a definite article. It's "Prince," not "the Prince."

Satan later became elaborated by apocalyptic Judaism as a sort of mighty evil angel figure, among a ridiculous profusion of weird angelic creatures in the "Enochic" literature. The NT uses him in this way, but still pretty lightly.

And rabbinical Judaism later still eliminated this version of Satan because he was too apocalyptic and opposed to God's power.

 

[ryan3434]

Funny you ask, we (under the influence of Christianity) always think of Satan as a Biblical figure, but that's based on a set of after-the-fact Christian arguments that identify Satan with various figures like the serpent.

In the OT, Satan just means 'adversary,' a generic title that is applied to anyone. It is *never* an actual proper name. In two books of the OT, however, it is used as an epithet (a description), meaning "the adversary." So in Job, when it says "Satan tempted Job," the Hebrew actually says "the satan" tempted Job, meaning the adversary. If Satan was a proper name, there wouldn't be a definite article. It's "Prince," not "the Prince."

Satan later became elaborated by apocalyptic Judaism as a sort of mighty evil angel figure, among a ridiculous profusion of weird angelic creatures in the "Enochic" literature. The NT uses him in this way, but still pretty lightly.

And rabbinical Judaism later still eliminated this version of Satan because he was too apocalyptic and opposed to God's power.

Rather interesting. Thanks.