Q for Grappling Geeks: O-Goshi (Hip Toss) vs Harai Goshi (Hip Sweep)

[ramareddy]

I hope you're all doing wonderfully.

a couple of connected and simplish questions,

When ordering throw entries, do you consider the Hip Sweep as a secondary to the Hip Toss. Meaning, "Oops, missed the Hip Toss, might as well stick out my leg and go the Harai Goshi".

The O Goshi has always seemed like a much more reliable throw to me, so if and when I perform/teach it, it's always a secondary or for guys that are so lanky that they can't line their hips for the Hip Toss.

In what situation would I prefer to use the Harai Goshi OVER the O Goshi?

I look forward to your wisdom. Cheers.

 

[MadSquabbles500]

O goshi requires you get your hip right on uke's hip though dont it? With Harai Goshi, it seems you get a little more slack and room for error

 

[QingTian]

They are very different movements, so I would not group them together at all. O goshi is like a squat, whereas harai is more lever based. The big hip throws are for uprooting static upright opponents from below, whereas harai is more upper body pull and prefers a moving situation.

If you follow up o goshi with harai, something else went wrong. The old story about how Kano figured out harai was with uki goshi, which is a different movement, and one where you think "why don't I just do harai, it's even better". Unless you are as short as Kano was, I suppose.

 

[Ninjamurf]

Oh c'mon! I came in here looking for posts from the likes of Uchi Mata and others! We've got some sick Judo knowledge in the F12. Where is it?!

 

[Ninjamurf]

Okay QiagTian snuck in with some knowledge while I had the page open. Expected some more posts though?!

 

[ramareddy]

They are very different movements, so I would not group them together at all. O goshi is like a squat, whereas harai is more lever based. The big hip throws are for uprooting static upright opponents from below, whereas harai is more upper body pull and prefers a moving situation.

If you follow up o goshi with harai, something else went wrong. The old story about how Kano figured out harai was with uki goshi, which is a different movement, and one where you think "why don't I just do harai, it's even better". Unless you are as short as Kano was, I suppose.

Thank you for the insight, I have a lay understanding of these mechanics.

To me, uki-goshi with an extended leg would turn into an uchi-mata. Is tori's hip not colliding with uke's pelvis/crotch, basically?

please correct me if I'm wrong, but In both cases, don't you want your partner moving into you with lots of space in front of their hips?

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

In general, you should be combining different plan and direction throws, because if you attack in one direction with a hip throw, your opponent will be already countering with balancing out from that plan. Continuous attack in the same direction/ plan, will only give him better opportunity to throw you.
Example: if you want to throw him with a hip throw, make him step back first and then you use the hole he created.

 

[Uchi Mata]

These throws are useful in different situations, and rely on different throwing actions as noted. O goshi is a lifting motion, harai is a sweeping/wheeling sort of motion. O goshi is normally more effective in a kenka yotsu or opposite stance situation, because the stance difference means that it's relatively easy to get your hips in for the entry without uke stepping around your hips to square back up. In addition, it's going to work well when uke is somewhat bent over already because you need to get his upper body/hips over your hips for your lift to be effective.

Harai works well in an ai yotsu or same stance situation, because you're sweeping the leading leg in that case making it hard for uke to step over (if you wanted to use a sweeping type throw in a kenka yotsu situation you'd be more likely to use uchi mata). The balance break is similar to O goshi, but you don't need to get as deep with your hip (in fact you shouldn't, because if you do your sweeping leg won't be able to make contact with uke's leg; harai is a half hip throw) and you're really not lifting with your hips so much as breaking balance forward and then sweeping uke's now relatively unweighted legs to wheel him over.

For me personally, I will use harai in a same stance situation and uchi mata in an opposite stance situation if I'm relatively at a distance in terms of gripping. You don't need to be super tight for either of those throws to work. I use O goshi generally when I've got a very strong, dominant, clinching grip like a belt grip under the arm or a strong overhand grip because in that situation it's relatively easy to get deep under uke's hips and get a strong lift. If you watch some highlights of both movements, you'll see this pattern emerge where harai (and uchi mata) occur much more for classical gripping scenarios where opponents are more or less at arms length, and O goshi occur much more in clinching, hip fighting exchanges or where tori gets a deep grip and basically dives under uke's hips to throw.