Punch with palm up theory

[Hotora86]

Dear Sherdoggers,

I'd like to invite you to partake in a little experiment before you begin bashing the thread. It may sound kinda silly but try to follow my instructions:

1. Make a loose fist. Don't clench it very hard. It will look more or less like this:

Notice how the joints of the the fingers stick out.

2. Raise your arm to neck height. Move your fist slowly upwards at an angle to hit it at about nose height without changing the wrist alignment or tightening the fist. If you were to throw a punch with this kind of fist you would hit with your finger joints instead of the knuckles.

3. Turn your fist 180 degrees, so that your palm is facing upwards, like this:

4. Raise your arm to neck height. Again, move your fist slowly upwards at an angle to hit it at about nose height without changing the wrist alignment or tightening the fist. If you were to throw a punch with this kind of fist you would hit with your knuckles (or middle knuckle) this time.

OK, now that I've got your attention (I wish! :icon_lol let's look at some old boxing stances, bad from the days when boxers did not use gloves:

Notice how the palms of the fighters' fists are turned slightly upwards with knuckles facing the opponent. Now I need a boxing history expert in here - did oldschool boxers punch with their palms up, using the "technique" (purposely in "") outlined in points 1-4?

And finally a question to all of you fellow Sherdoggers - what is your take on this kind of punch?

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know that the proper fist should be clenched, thumb supporting the fingers, wrist aligned with the arm BLAH BLAH BLAH... I'm asking you to forget "good form" for a second and focus on this type of punch only.

(important) PS: This "technique" isn't my own idea - I came across this kind of punch in Kyokushin Karate training a few years ago. It was used in the warmup routine and never in sparring but supposedly it was a punch to the face from a square stance with fists in front of the jaw for protection, knuckles facing outwards, palms facing up-ish at an angle.

Flame away!

 

[Higus]

I read about this a while back. There are a lot of theories about the ol’ timey stance. Some of them are that the fist orientation were relics from fencing and cestus fighting days. A spiked cestus in particular could cause more damage with the back of the hand and more protection against your opponent’s punches. Other theories are that the old London Prizefighting Rules (LPR) had different clinching/throwing/grabbing rules, that made holding your fists out like that make more sense. Other people theorize that fists were either drawn or photographed like that for purely artistic/posing purposes. Most people agree that the punches had some rotation on them before landing. They weren’t thrown as hard back then since broken hands were a real issue and fights didn’t have round limits.

 

[Bennosuke]

It seems like it would be less powerful, though I can't think of the kinesiologic reason why less, other than you won't have the shear stress from twisting the punch.

That said, you can just flex the wrist a little more so that the finger joints don't stick out as much. Similarly, you could extend the wrist more when throwing the palm up punch and cause the same problem.

Even if proper technique is less natural with one style, doesn't mean it's worse. The basics of all punching mechanics are not natural, which is why you have to learn how to fight.

 

[Savko]

This method of punching feels better on the wrist, as you feel less wrist strain which is what they needed since they didn't have gloves(to avoid breaking their hand). However, the punch doesn't feel as strong.

 

[ssullivan80]

Dear Sherdoggers,

I'd like to invite you to partake in a little experiment before you begin bashing the thread. It may sound kinda silly but try to follow my instructions:

[


OK, now that I've got your attention (I wish! :icon_lol let's look at some old boxing stances, bad from the days when boxers did not use gloves:

Notice how the palms of the fighters' fists are turned slightly upwards with knuckles facing the opponent. Now I need a boxing history expert in here - did oldschool boxers punch with their palms up, using the "technique" (purposely in "") outlined in points 1-4?

And finally a question to all of you fellow Sherdoggers - what is your take on this kind of punch?

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know that the proper fist should be clenched, thumb supporting the fingers, wrist aligned with the arm BLAH BLAH BLAH... I'm asking you to forget "good form" for a second and focus on this type of punch only.

(important) PS: This "technique" isn't my own idea - I came across this kind of punch in Kyokushin Karate training a few years ago. It was used in the warmup routine and never in sparring but supposedly it was a punch to the face from a square stance with fists in front of the jaw for protection, knuckles facing outwards, palms facing up-ish at an angle.

Flame away!

Good post.....

Responses to whats above in Red:

- Not wearing gloves was a primary reason punches were thrown this way. With the added wrist support of gloves an wraps the dynamic changes!

- The punch your describing is often referred to as an Uppercut:icon_idea

 

[bowlie]

yeah we got taught those punches along with the standard ones at boxing. we called them screw shots because they kinda corkscrew. they feel good and you can get some decent power in them, but they arent quite as fast or versatile as a normal cross. good as an extra weapon, but not to replace the other punches

 

[Savko]

yeah we got taught those punches along with the standard ones at boxing. we called them screw shots because they kinda corkscrew. they feel good and you can get some decent power in them, but they arent quite as fast or versatile as a normal cross. good as an extra weapon, but not to replace the other punches

Haha yeah we been taught the "screw shot" in boxing. We used it after slipping a punch we use the jab and turn it into a screw shot and aim for bottom of the nose. I've been hit by one of them in sparring... OUCH

 

[Rambo Jesus]

Palm down I hit with my knuckles. I never hit with my finger joints. Wtf is this nonsense about wrist support? Throwing a proper punch is all about having proper wrist/arm/knuckle alignment so you don't sprain your wrist.

Also throwing palm up is less powerful because its an unnatural movement for punching. All the muscles are out of whack.

 

[aries]

Is it not because they land with the vertical fist and starting from the palm up allows the boxer to add twist. Also notice that in the drawn picture that their fists are more in the vertical position than anything else. And the rear hand definitely isn't carried palm up.

 

[SAAMAG]

(important) PS: This "technique" isn't my own idea - I came across this kind of punch in Kyokushin Karate training a few years ago. It was used in the warmup routine and never in sparring but supposedly it was a punch to the face from a square stance with fists in front of the jaw for protection, knuckles facing outwards, palms facing up-ish at an angle.

Flame away!

What you're talking about is Uraken Ganmen Uchi. It's a backfist strike using the top side of the first two knuckles aimed at the face.

It's not quite the same punch you're talking about with the "old school" boxing. Ganmen Uchi is forward launched backfist with the weight of the body behind it.

The older boxing punches, as already stated by others was still a forefist punch, but because it typically travelled an upward vector It focused the knuckles to lead. If it were any other punch and if the punch was off the mark physically or in its timing...the hand had a high chance (and often did) collide with the opponents forehead. The fact that the bouts were bareknuckle already heightened the likelihood of hand injuries and eapecially when fists collide with the crown of the forehead. Punching that way (palm up) tended to lesson injuries.

 

[Discipulus]

It's also just a nice variation on the jab. Throw your jab from down low with the fist turned over--much like a long uppercut. It's not as powerful as a stiff jab, but it can sneak between the forearms of guys who keep a very high, tight guard.

Here:

It comes from a bit of a sneaky angle.

 

[Hotora86]

Good post.....

Responses to whats above in Red:

- Not wearing gloves was a primary reason punches were thrown this way. With the added wrist support of gloves an wraps the dynamic changes!

- The punch your describing is often referred to as an Uppercut:icon_idea

Not quite. The uppercut (in boxing terms) travels with the forearm pointing up, it's more of an upwards motion. The punch I was talking about is thrown at an angle and at a longer range.

EDIT: SAMAAG helped me identify the technique. It is Uraken Shomen Ganmen Uchi.

 

[Hotora86]

What you're talking about is Uraken Ganmen Uchi. It's a backfist strike using the top side of the first two knuckles aimed at the face.

It's not quite the same punch you're talking about with the "old school" boxing. Ganmen Uchi is forward launched backfist with the weight of the body behind it.

The older boxing punches, as already stated by others was still a forefist punch, but because it typically travelled an upward vector It focused the knuckles to lead. If it were any other punch and if the punch was off the mark physically or in its timing...the hand had a high chance (and often did) collide with the opponents forehead. The fact that the bouts were bareknuckle already heightened the likelihood of hand injuries and eapecially when fists collide with the crown of the forehead. Punching that way (palm up) tended to lesson injuries.

By God, I think you've got it! It probably is Uraken Ganmen Uchi indeed! I didn't really know the proper name since nobody mentioned it in Kyokushin and we never learned that in Shotokan at all. Thanks, SAAMAG!

I was pretty sure it is supposed to land with the seiken (forefist, not backfist) though:

Just like the bare knuckle boxing punch you describe - with knuckles leading. Also see the gif I found in my post just above this one. Is that the correct form for Uraken Ganmen Uchi in your opinion?

Anyway, thanks for a great post.

 

[Hotora86]

It's also just a nice variation on the jab. Throw your jab from down low with the fist turned over--much like a long uppercut. It's not as powerful as a stiff jab, but it can sneak between the forearms of guys who keep a very high, tight guard.

Here:

[image]

It comes from a bit of a sneaky angle.

I see the similarity to Uraken Ganmen Uchi (shown above). Thanks a lot for the insight and picture.

 

[SAAMAG]

By virtue of the name alone, it's the top of the knuckles not the forefist that is the contact point.

Seiken - fore fist (first two knuckles)

Uraken - top of forefist (back of first two knuckles)

(Ura means basically "reverse" or "back" and Ken can be translated as fist in this case)

 

[Hotora86]

By virtue of the name alone, it's the top of the knuckles not the forefist that is the contact point.

Seiken - fore fist (first two knuckles)

Uraken - top of forefist (back of first two knuckles)

(Ura means basically "reverse" or "back" and Ken can be translated as fist in this case)

Well yeah, that was a DERP question on my account.
I do think one could land that punch with seiken though, making it a Seiken Shomen Ganmen Uchi, even though such a technique does not exist... YET! :wink:

 

[KenkaBancho]

Michihiro Omigawa does this A LOT. He's got a really weird boxing stance, almost like peek-a-boo but switches his lead foot when he comes in close. He's actually scored a few knockdowns with this.

 

[Gawd]

The older boxing punches, as already stated by others was still a forefist punch, but because it typically travelled an upward vector It focused the knuckles to lead. If it were any other punch and if the punch was off the mark physically or in its timing...the hand had a high chance (and often did) collide with the opponents forehead. The fact that the bouts were bareknuckle already heightened the likelihood of hand injuries and eapecially when fists collide with the crown of the forehead. Punching that way (palm up) tended to lesson injuries.

Also, there's a theory that they'd want to use forearm blocks which accounts for the peculiar stance. Not much of this seen in modern bareknuckle boxing though.

 

[SAAMAG]

Also, there's a theory that they'd want to use forearm blocks which accounts for the peculiar stance. Not much of this seen in modern bareknuckle boxing though.

Yessir. I've heard that theory on using leverage blocks. I first studied this style of boxing while heavy into wing chun because of the similarities they had with the punching formation and the blocking theories. Funny how around the same time that this boxing was still in place that wing chun was arguably becoming more known.

Brit's were also traveling in China quite a bit then too. Lots of cross culture pollination going on. I think it would be plausible that some of the same elements exist in both due to that exposure to each other.

Check this out:





I first saw these many years ago...turned onto them from the wing chun forum goer's. Then I started reading about it, and doing more research. Etc. Great stuff.

 

[barnowl]

Well yeah, that was a DERP question on my account.
I do think one could land that punch with seiken though, making it a Seiken Shomen Ganmen Uchi, even though such a technique does not exist... YET! :wink:

It does in Chinese styles. Goes by the oddly apt name of scorpion punch. We were also taught how to use it in boxing as a follow up punch to a long jab against opponents that like to follow the jab back in.