Probably naive question about wrestling approach in MMA

[Rubios]

I've trained MT half my life, but my wrestling and ground is almost non existent.
So my closest experience to wrestling is... MT clinch.

Here's my point: MT clinch (without referee interference...) is sheer brutality focused on inflicting damage -the nastiest elbows, knees targeting the liver, spleen or inner thight that badly harm the opponent-.
The sweeps (don't know if it's the correct term in English, let's say "takedowns") look for a violent fall to the canvas instead of taking your opponent down per se.
Well, all of you already know that.

And my question: why every "melee" clash in MMA is a duel for getting/avoiding a TD, and no fighter approaches it as close-range combat instead, the same way is understood in MT (and represents one of its most savage instances)?

I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm not getting to it by myself 8)

Thanks in advance.

 

[shunyata]

There's plenty of clinch striking in mma, but you also need to fight for underhooks and stop single and double leg takedowns because having someone on top of you raining down punches and elbows is a demonstrably worse position to be in than the clinch (a dangerous but neutral postion).

 

[Get To Da Choppa]

I've trained MT half my life, but my wrestling and ground is almost non existent.
So my closest experience to wrestling is... MT clinch.

Here's my point: MT clinch (without referee interference...) is sheer brutality focused on inflicting damage -the nastiest elbows, knees targeting the liver, spleen or inner thight that badly harm the opponent-.
The sweeps (don't know if it's the correct term in English, let's say "takedowns") look for a violent fall to the canvas instead of taking your opponent down per se.
Well, all of you already know that.

And my question: why every "melee" clash in MMA is a duel for getting/avoiding a TD, and no fighter approaches it as close-range combat instead, the same way is understood in MT (and represents one of its most savage instances)?

I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm not getting to it by myself 8)

Thanks in advance.

I think it's because the majority of MMA fighters have a wrestling base, so their default approach to close quarters is takedowns.

Occasionally you'll have some stand up fighters with nasty clinch attacks. Anderson Silva and Jon Jones come to mind

We've also seen some fighters use the cage and elbows to snuff takedown attempts and even knock out opponents. However, when an opponent is trying to take you down, the first instinct is probably to avoid the TD

 

[Megatronlee]

I train Muay Thai casually but I’ve trained Bjj and Mma since like 2006

I dropped in a Muay Thai class and we ended with a “clinch “ round

Rules = you get 3 mins and you guys baffle in the clinch and switch partners at the bell

I don’t do Muay Thai so I used my wrestling clinchs instead and I found a lot of success.

I wasn’t very offensive but I didn’t get hit

 

[Luthien]

This is why Sam Colt invented the bloody gun that won the WEST! Can't have bigger men get their wrestling hands on you!

 

[Darragh]

This is a really insightful question, had to think a bit before responding.

Coming from a judo background so my perspective is different, but I think you can either focus on the clinch as a place to land damage or a transition point to ground game. Because judges score takedowns so favorably, getting underhooks and scoring something more "flashy" is more of a priority for some fighters. A short knee to the liver can be devastating, but its such a quick and short movement it can be harder for the judges to register. That doesn't mean some fighters aren't particularly artful with their damage against the cage (Alistair Overeem, Travis Browne etc) but it is a very particular style of fighter you're right.

A few years ago I was fortunate to be staying at the same hotel as the UFC during a fight in San Antonio and had a long conversation with Sal D'amato in the hotel gym. One thing he said to me that I'll never forget is that you have to also realize that watching a fight ringside versus on a television monitor is completely different. They have access to the screens, but a lot of things register in person that aren't apparent when watching from home. I think the opposite has to be true as well -- a camera zoomed in on a clinch is going to show more than people ringside watching through the cage.

The fighters aren't just fighting, they're also putting on a show for the judges.

 

[NoSmilez]

If you train MT then you know you can get thrown or turned when you throw a jumping hard knee. In MT you can throw as hard as you can in the clinch because if you get thrown or swept then the fight gets restarted. In MMA if you end up on the bottom then you are losing.

Another factor is the MMA guys who train MT aren't that good at it. They aren't specialists at MT. Not many people know how to dump others. I can only remember a handful of guys who can throw or understand clinch fighting. Even those Russians that train at Tiger like Shara and Fizzy aren't really MT guys. Maybe Mighty Mouse or Matt Brown are guys who do more than just tugging the head. Khalil doesn't do it in his fights but he can hit throws during training. A lot of dumps/throws are reactionary counters. If your opponent isn't kneeing or giving you an opening then it's not easy to throw or sweep.

 

[OleBuffalo]

I think largely cus in MMA there's a lot more options and things to consider/worry about in those clinch positions, so in order for those positions to be used more like they are in muay thai, the two fighters would sort of have to agree to not use all the other tools available in those positions in MMA. Otherwise, one fighter would be looking to do muay thai while the other could incorporate aspects of MMA clinching and grappling that would stifle or exploit a predominantly MT clinch approach. In general it appears much more difficult to be offensively effective in those positions when an opponent can stifle attacks with under/overhooks, advance to better positions, look for TDs, wrist control cus the open gloves, etc

It used to be easier to inflict damage in the clinch before everyone was as cross-trained and proficient in all the various areas, but the sport has evolved to where it's much harder to just savage someone in the clinch like Anderson did to Rich Franklin. That being said, we still see fighters with very offensive clinch game, particularly against the cage. Not an elite example, but off the top of my head cus he's got a fight lined up, Nate Landwehr is a dude who has done a good job of beating ppl up and dominating clinch positions rather than using it moreso to set up takedowns or 'control time'. His style is an attrition one, so it makes sense that he'd have success in those positions since his opponents are usually less fresh and not able to defend as effectively. See Landwehr vs Onama for pure chaos

 

[TheMoa]

Watch Silva x Franklin (the second fight too), that was soul taking clinch work.
And I think that's part of the reason, guys that dont have a good clinch offense go for defensive TDs while guys who have a good offensive clinch feel more vulnerable to being takedown while doing some knee damage. That's probably why most clinch exchanges we see is on the fence.
That would be my guess

 

[TheMoa]

I think largely cus in MMA there's a lot more options and things to consider/worry about in those clinch positions, so in order for those positions to be used more like they are in muay thai, the two fighters would sort of have to agree to not use all the other tools available in those positions in MMA. Otherwise, one fighter would be looking to do muay thai while the other could incorporate aspects of MMA clinching and grappling that would exploit a predominantly MT clinch approach. So in general it appears much more difficult to be offensively effective in those positions when an opponent can stifle attacks with under/overhooks, advance to better positions, look for TDs, etc.

It used to be easier to inflict damage in the clinch before everyone was as cross-trained and proficient in all the various areas, but the sport has evolved to where it's much harder to just savage someone in the clinch like Anderson did to Rich Franklin. That being said, we still see fighters make use of those positions, particularly against the cage. Not an elite example, but off the top of my head cus he's got a fight lined up, Nate Landwehr is a dude who has done a good job of beating ppl up and dominating clinch positions rather than using it moreso to set up takedowns or 'control time'. His style is an attrition one, so it makes sense that he'd have success in those positions since his opponents are usually less fresh and not able to defend as effectively

beat me to it for half a minute, better explanation too hahaha

 

[OleBuffalo]

beat me to it for half a minute, better explanation too hahaha

im sure you could've got there in less words than me tho cus I overtype like a mofo lol

 

[dipstickjimmy]

I've trained MT half my life, but my wrestling and ground is almost non existent.
So my closest experience to wrestling is... MT clinch.

Here's my point: MT clinch (without referee interference...) is sheer brutality focused on inflicting damage -the nastiest elbows, knees targeting the liver, spleen or inner thight that badly harm the opponent-.
The sweeps (don't know if it's the correct term in English, let's say "takedowns") look for a violent fall to the canvas instead of taking your opponent down per se.
Well, all of you already know that.

And my question: why every "melee" clash in MMA is a duel for getting/avoiding a TD, and no fighter approaches it as close-range combat instead, the same way is understood in MT (and represents one of its most savage instances)?

I'm sure the answer is obvious, but I'm not getting to it by myself 8)

Thanks in advance.

Why do you think it is a fact that "no fighter approaches it as close-range combat". TDs are a weapon. Getting in a dominant position mean you are less able to be hit and more able to hit your opponent. That is close range combat. I think you are asking why don't all MMA fighters just stand and bang.

 

[BJJ4Tone]

 

[Intermission]

Almost nobody has a deep background in Muay Thai. That's why. But we do have a bunch of pretenders like Khalil.

 

[Lord Pyjamas]

The best mt techniques are not thrown in the clinch.
You rarely see fight ending shots from there no matter how much you guys wants to have a repeat of early Anderson Silva.

 

[TriangleMonkey]

You ever done Muay Thai off your back?

Hardest thing ever

Wrestlers (traditionally trained, not BJJ guys) have a multitude of mechanics in which to sit you on your ass down on the ground w/o using much energy at all

Half the fight is already won in mma

 

[Rubios]

Thks for the replies, much appreciated and insightful 8)

As I suspected, I think I was understimating a lot the cost of opportunity of inflicting damage vs being taken down and having a guy GnP'ing you on the ground.

That said, I want to raise a final... "reflection" (kinda).

First, MT clinch is in fact nerfed as f*ck, resembling more and more "boxing clinch" due to referee constant interference.
But, if you take that out of the equation, MT clinch is THE most dangerous situation for obvious reasons:

Oversimplificating for the sake of the discussion, it consists of an underhook with one arm and an overhook with the other. Stance, hand positioning, body balance... all that is nothing alike, I know. Just follow me on that flawed comparison, plz =)

But instead of a "war of attrition" looking for a TD/TD defense, it's a poker game of timing to make ONE explossive effort to get just a tiny bit of space and free your elbow.
Or a bit more to get the knees into play.

Let's only talk about the elbows here. A free elbow with just a little room needs no more than a second to inflict devastating damage to the other dude's face striking from three trajectories. Elbows are evil, elbows are proof that, if there's a God, he wants to see the world burn.

So my final and -I hope- not so dumb question is:

Would it be so stupid, when a wrestling/standing TD attempt takes place, to "deceive" your opponent like you're fighting to resist the TD...

...But just waiting for the right moment to explode with all you got to win those inches (because we're talking about inches here) for a second, and land a sequence of elbows to his face?

As you know for sure, at the closest range, elbows are the fastest strike, barely need space or range of motion and, due to his trajectory, chaining two or three in a rapidfire combination takes the blink of an eye.

Isn't that a potential fight-ending move worth the risk?

 

[Rubios]

I train Muay Thai casually but I’ve trained Bjj and Mma since like 2006

I dropped in a Muay Thai class and we ended with a “clinch “ round

Rules = you get 3 mins and you guys baffle in the clinch and switch partners at the bell

I don’t do Muay Thai so I used my wrestling clinchs instead and I found a lot of success.

I wasn’t very offensive but I didn’t get hit

You may be a total savage. Wow.

SEVERAL 3 min clinch rounds as a "casual" MT training is brutal.
I know actual clinch weapons are just "simulated" and not actually landed in training, because this is not Fight Club and no one wants to come back home like Irene Aldana lol

But still, it's pretty savage for the joints and I always end up like having visited a bad chiropractor.

Huge propos to you.

 

[Megatronlee]

You may be a total savage. Wow.

SEVERAL 3 min clinch rounds as a "casual" MT training is brutal.
I know actual clinch weapons are just "simulated" and not actually landed in training, because this is not Fight Club and no one wants to come back home like Irene Aldana lol

But still, it's pretty savage for the joints and I always end up like having visited a bad chiropractor.

Huge propos to you.

I basically switched from dick to dick nose to nose body lock hahahah and a traditional wrestling tie up and I’d just shove them off when they threw knees.

I did well enough that I felt satisfied

But I think in a Muay Thai fight the ref would have made me be more active

 

[Megatronlee]

You may be a total savage. Wow.

SEVERAL 3 min clinch rounds as a "casual" MT training is brutal.
I know actual clinch weapons are just "simulated" and not actually landed in training, because this is not Fight Club and no one wants to come back home like Irene Aldana lol

But still, it's pretty savage for the joints and I always end up like having visited a bad chiropractor.

Huge propos to you.

Also you ever plan on fighting?