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Potential landmark case in Cali: Don't troll muslims on FB

Necromantic

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Long story short, Cali brought charges against a man for making anti-islam posts to a muslim org. No threats of violence only mild hate.

Now, this is not an "oh you can rag on Christians all day but not muslims thread".

Basically, they are making the charge under a law pertaining to harassing someone with calling them up and stuff over an over and claiming doing this on FB/social media is the same thing.

See where this can go? If this guy is found guilty, then not only will you get the anti-muslim people but everyone!
SJWs are going to get hit with this the most. You want to harass and threaten people for making an AIDS Africa joke? You are going to get hit.

I hope this case gets thrown out and is not taken seriously, but if it were, just take it to its logical conclusion...

http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/30/c...for-posting-anti-muslim-messages-on-facebook/
California has leveled misdemeanor charges against 41-year-old Mark Feigin after he sent five anti-Muslim posts to the Islamic Center of Southern California’s (ICSC) Facebook page in 2016.

The California Attorney General’s office argues that his comments constituted “repeated contact by means of an electronic communication device” with “intent to annoy or harass,” a misdemeanor under California law, Reason.com reported Friday. California courts are scheduled to begin the trial Jan. 2, according to court records. Feigin admitted in October 2016 that he wrote the following comments between Sept. 17 and 25 of the same year.

“THE TERROR HIKE … SOUNDS LIKE FUN” (In reference to the Center’s advertised “Sunset Hike”)
“THE MORE MUSLIMS WE ALLOW INTO AMERICA THE MORE TERROR WE WILL SEE.”
“PRACTICING ISLAM CAN SLOW OR EVEN REVERSE THE PROCESS OF HUMAN EVOLUTION.”
“Islam is dangerous – fact: the more muslim savages we allow into america – the more terror we will see -this is a fact which is undeniable.”
“Filthy muslim shit has no place in western civilization.”

ICSC Communications Coordinator Kristin Stangas blocked Feigin soon after he made the final post, but also kept copies of the comments to pursue legal action. The Los Angeles Police Department arrested Feigin Oct. 19 and interviewed him. Feigin is now arguing that his charges should be dismissed because they are based on an unconstitutional application of the law.

Specifically, Cal. Penal Code § 653m(b) states that “every person who, with intent to annoy or harass, makes repeated telephone calls or makes repeated contact by means of an electronic communication device … to another person is … guilty of a misdemeanor. Nothing in this subdivision shall apply to telephone calls or electronic contacts made in good faith or during the ordinary course and scope of business.”

The AG’s office argues that Facebook comments are not legally different from telephone calls in this circumstance, and that Feigin’s intent was clearly to “annoy or harass,” making his actions illegal.
 
would have figured harrassment was already an offense
 
Bullshit charge. It is not the same as a phone call, since a phone call is audible. You can ignore FB posts and delete them.

This is an attempt to intimidate and harass a person for controversial views. When the State tries to impose these 'Hate Crimes' laws on people, they are always applied hypocritically and with double standard, which in itself should be seen as a 'Hate Crime' because some 'Hatefull' views are protected while others aren't.
 
So this is basically a law against preaching the gospel. How can you hope to convert a Muslim to Christ without telling them that their prophet was a :eek::eek::eek::eek:phile and that their god is Satan????
 
So when is the State going to charge Muslims and Muslim organizations with Hate Crimes for preaching the Quran. When are Muslim commenters and evangelicals going to be charged for comments extolling and defending Islam.
 
So when is the State going to charge Muslims and Muslim organizations with Hate Crimes for preaching the Quran. When are Muslim commenters and evangelicals going to be charged for comments extolling and defending Islam.
Never
 
This is so blantantly in violation of the first amendment it is not even funny.

http://reason.com/volokh/2017/12/29/calif-prosecuting-man-for-insulting-post

In September 2016, Mark Feigin posted five insulting comments on the Islamic Center of Southern California's Facebook page (before he was finally blocked by the ICSC from commenting):

  • "THE TERROR HIKE ... SOUNDS LIKE FUN" (written in response to the Center's "Sunset Hike" announcement).
  • "THE MORE MUSLIMS WE ALLOW INTO AMERICA THE MORE TERROR WE WILL SEE."
  • "PRACTICING ISLAM CAN SLOW OR EVEN REVERSE THE PROCESS OF HUMAN EVOLUTION."
  • "Islam is dangerous - fact: the more muslim savages we allow into america - the more terror we will see -this is a fact which is undeniable."
  • "Filthy muslim shit has no place in western civilization."
California is now prosecuting him for posting these comments, on the theory that they violate Cal. Penal Code § 653m(b):

Every person who, with intent to annoy or harass, makes repeated telephone calls or makes repeated contact by means of an electronic communication device ... to another person is ... guilty of a misdemeanor. Nothing in this subdivision shall apply to telephone calls or electronic contacts made in good faith or during the ordinary course and scope of business.

The posts, the California AG's office argues, were "were made with the specific intent to annoy and harass the members of the ICSC," because Feigin "was not trying to engage in any kind of political discussion but instead trying to vex members of the ICSC with his thoughts about their religion." The posts are criminal because they constitute "repeated harassment from those who wish to mock and disparage their religion," and, "[r]ather than attempt to engage in discussion or debate," are "cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it."

What could be more "intolerable" than for [the] ICSC Communications Director ... to check the ICSC's Facebook page and discover that someone has written "PRACTICING ISLAM CAN SLOW OR EVEN REVERSE THE PROCESS OF HUMAN EVOLUTION" as the Defendant in this case did .... Or how about ... "Filthy muslim shit has no place in western civilization." This is exactly the kind of repeated, annoying, and harassing electronic communication that PC 653m(b) is meant to deter. Protected speech? Political speech? Defendant's posts on the ICSC Facebook page are neither of those things.

And the government's argument makes clear that it's going after Feigin for the content -- indeed the viewpoint -- of his speech: "The mere content and nature of the posts establish that they are not made in 'good faith' as Defendant would suggest but are meant to annoy and harass." "Defendant is not seeking uriderstanding or guidance, instead he is posting in order to annoy and harass those who have beliefs with which he vehemently abhors." The Facebook's page public accessibility "does not translate into requiring ICSC or its members to sustain repeated harassment from those who wish to mock and disparage their religion." "Rather than attempt to engage in discussion or debate, Defendant's posts are cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it." Nor is the government's argument limited to vulgar epithets ("Filthy muslim shit"), though even those epithets are constitutionally protected when said outside the context of face-to-face "fighting words"; it applies just as much to the nonvulgar criticisms.

Of course, there's nothing in the government's logic that limits it to comments posted on the Islamic Center's page, or for that matter on the Catholic Church's page or the Westboro Baptist Church's page or the Church of Scientology's page. If the government is right, and the statute applies to posts on organizations' pages, then it would apply to any repeated harshly critical posts

  • on an NRA page "intended to annoy" NRA employees,
  • on a pro-Trump page "intended to annoy" its operators,
  • or on any other ideological organization's page.
The "during the ordinary course and scope of business" exception might exclude consumer complaints, but the government's theory is that this exception doesn't apply to this sort of criticism that is "cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it" -- logic that would apply equally to criticism of political as well as religious ideologies. Nor can the courts constitutionally conclude that harsh insults of the NRA are "in good faith" and similar harsh insults of Islam are not.

This can't possibly be consistent with the First Amendment; indeed, in U.S. v. Popa (D.C. Cir. 1999), the D.C. Circuit set aside a telephone harassment conviction of someone who left seven racist messages on the voicemail of then-U.S.-Attorney Eric Holder; and the court focused on the "political message" of the speech, and not on Holder's status as a government official. Given that insults targeted to a particular person, related to a political message, are thus constitutionally protected, so are more general insults aimed at an ideology and all its adherents, whether that ideology is Islam, Scientology, conservatism, gun rights, or anything else. Laws aimed at preventing unwanted repeated messages to particular private citizens shouldn't be applied to messages sent to ideological organizations (or to public officials). And this is especially so when it comes to annoying Facebook posts, which the organization can simply block.

Caleb Mason at Brown White & Osborn LLP -- which many of our readers may know as the firm at which Ken White (Popehat) is one of the partners -- has filed motions to dismiss the charges; I hope the court indeed promptly throws them out as unjustified under the statute, forbidden by the First Amendment, or both. But if the courts accept such charges, expect to see many more people, left, right, and otherwise, prosecuted for posting insulting messages on many groups' web pages.

(I should note that Feigin is also being charged with making a threatening phone call to the Islamic Center; but that is a separate count, based on separate conduct, and it's far from clear that Feigin was actually the person who made that call, as this CNN story [Scott Glover] describes. The Center employee who received the call claimed that it sounded like Feigin's voice, which he heard when making a call to test the theory that the caller was the same person who wrote the Facebook posts. But the employee also continues to claim that the call sounded like the voice of someone who had left a different message on the Center's voice-mail the day before -- and that person has been proved to be someone other than Feigin.

Nor do the police have any phone records linking the threatening call to Feigin: They waited seven months before trying to get the records, and by then Citrix, which operated the calling number as part of its GoToMeeting teleconferencing system, had purged its records. This is why this post focuses on the Facebook posts, which Feigin did make, and not on the separate threatening phone call charge.)


VIEW COMMENTS (94)
 
Every person who, with intent to annoy or harass, makes repeated telephone calls or makes repeated contact by means of an electronic communication device ... to another person is ... guilty of a misdemeanor. Nothing in this subdivision shall apply to telephone calls or electronic contacts made in good faith or during the ordinary course and scope of business.

He's guilty of a misdemeanor for being too lazy to make fake FB profiles to send troll messages to a local religious org. I find him guilty of being a shit tier troll and sentence him to a $500 fine and dubs.
 

Darwin, brah, Darwin

would have figured harrassment was already an offense

But it is determining what constitutes harassment in the social media age.

He's guilty of a misdemeanor for being too lazy to make fake FB profiles to send troll messages to a local religious org. I find him guilty of being a shit tier troll and sentence him to a $500 fine and dubs.

OMG Judge Judy posts here
 
Seems to me if the board allows non-members to post then they've opened themselves up to unwanted opinions. People have a right to express distaste.

If he's been told to leave and hasn't then it's more like trespassing. Cyber-trespassing should be the law of the land. :cool:
 
The part they're missing is this happened on Facebook on public posts. He did not go contact them on their private website or call them on their private phone number. I don't see how that law should apply here.
 
This is so blantantly in violation of the first amendment it is not even funny.

http://reason.com/volokh/2017/12/29/calif-prosecuting-man-for-insulting-post

In September 2016, Mark Feigin posted five insulting comments on the Islamic Center of Southern California's Facebook page (before he was finally blocked by the ICSC from commenting):

  • "THE TERROR HIKE ... SOUNDS LIKE FUN" (written in response to the Center's "Sunset Hike" announcement).
  • "THE MORE MUSLIMS WE ALLOW INTO AMERICA THE MORE TERROR WE WILL SEE."
  • "PRACTICING ISLAM CAN SLOW OR EVEN REVERSE THE PROCESS OF HUMAN EVOLUTION."
  • "Islam is dangerous - fact: the more muslim savages we allow into america - the more terror we will see -this is a fact which is undeniable."
  • "Filthy muslim shit has no place in western civilization."
California is now prosecuting him for posting these comments, on the theory that they violate Cal. Penal Code § 653m(b):

Every person who, with intent to annoy or harass, makes repeated telephone calls or makes repeated contact by means of an electronic communication device ... to another person is ... guilty of a misdemeanor. Nothing in this subdivision shall apply to telephone calls or electronic contacts made in good faith or during the ordinary course and scope of business.

The posts, the California AG's office argues, were "were made with the specific intent to annoy and harass the members of the ICSC," because Feigin "was not trying to engage in any kind of political discussion but instead trying to vex members of the ICSC with his thoughts about their religion." The posts are criminal because they constitute "repeated harassment from those who wish to mock and disparage their religion," and, "[r]ather than attempt to engage in discussion or debate," are "cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it."

What could be more "intolerable" than for [the] ICSC Communications Director ... to check the ICSC's Facebook page and discover that someone has written "PRACTICING ISLAM CAN SLOW OR EVEN REVERSE THE PROCESS OF HUMAN EVOLUTION" as the Defendant in this case did .... Or how about ... "Filthy muslim shit has no place in western civilization." This is exactly the kind of repeated, annoying, and harassing electronic communication that PC 653m(b) is meant to deter. Protected speech? Political speech? Defendant's posts on the ICSC Facebook page are neither of those things.

And the government's argument makes clear that it's going after Feigin for the content -- indeed the viewpoint -- of his speech: "The mere content and nature of the posts establish that they are not made in 'good faith' as Defendant would suggest but are meant to annoy and harass." "Defendant is not seeking uriderstanding or guidance, instead he is posting in order to annoy and harass those who have beliefs with which he vehemently abhors." The Facebook's page public accessibility "does not translate into requiring ICSC or its members to sustain repeated harassment from those who wish to mock and disparage their religion." "Rather than attempt to engage in discussion or debate, Defendant's posts are cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it." Nor is the government's argument limited to vulgar epithets ("Filthy muslim shit"), though even those epithets are constitutionally protected when said outside the context of face-to-face "fighting words"; it applies just as much to the nonvulgar criticisms.

Of course, there's nothing in the government's logic that limits it to comments posted on the Islamic Center's page, or for that matter on the Catholic Church's page or the Westboro Baptist Church's page or the Church of Scientology's page. If the government is right, and the statute applies to posts on organizations' pages, then it would apply to any repeated harshly critical posts

  • on an NRA page "intended to annoy" NRA employees,
  • on a pro-Trump page "intended to annoy" its operators,
  • or on any other ideological organization's page.
The "during the ordinary course and scope of business" exception might exclude consumer complaints, but the government's theory is that this exception doesn't apply to this sort of criticism that is "cruel and pointedly aimed at dismissing an entire religion and those who practice it" -- logic that would apply equally to criticism of political as well as religious ideologies. Nor can the courts constitutionally conclude that harsh insults of the NRA are "in good faith" and similar harsh insults of Islam are not.

This can't possibly be consistent with the First Amendment; indeed, in U.S. v. Popa (D.C. Cir. 1999), the D.C. Circuit set aside a telephone harassment conviction of someone who left seven racist messages on the voicemail of then-U.S.-Attorney Eric Holder; and the court focused on the "political message" of the speech, and not on Holder's status as a government official. Given that insults targeted to a particular person, related to a political message, are thus constitutionally protected, so are more general insults aimed at an ideology and all its adherents, whether that ideology is Islam, Scientology, conservatism, gun rights, or anything else. Laws aimed at preventing unwanted repeated messages to particular private citizens shouldn't be applied to messages sent to ideological organizations (or to public officials). And this is especially so when it comes to annoying Facebook posts, which the organization can simply block.

Caleb Mason at Brown White & Osborn LLP -- which many of our readers may know as the firm at which Ken White (Popehat) is one of the partners -- has filed motions to dismiss the charges; I hope the court indeed promptly throws them out as unjustified under the statute, forbidden by the First Amendment, or both. But if the courts accept such charges, expect to see many more people, left, right, and otherwise, prosecuted for posting insulting messages on many groups' web pages.

(I should note that Feigin is also being charged with making a threatening phone call to the Islamic Center; but that is a separate count, based on separate conduct, and it's far from clear that Feigin was actually the person who made that call, as this CNN story [Scott Glover] describes. The Center employee who received the call claimed that it sounded like Feigin's voice, which he heard when making a call to test the theory that the caller was the same person who wrote the Facebook posts. But the employee also continues to claim that the call sounded like the voice of someone who had left a different message on the Center's voice-mail the day before -- and that person has been proved to be someone other than Feigin.

Nor do the police have any phone records linking the threatening call to Feigin: They waited seven months before trying to get the records, and by then Citrix, which operated the calling number as part of its GoToMeeting teleconferencing system, had purged its records. This is why this post focuses on the Facebook posts, which Feigin did make, and not on the separate threatening phone call charge.)


VIEW COMMENTS (94)

I think the litigation is fine. That's not to say I think the individual should be convicted of a misdemeanor. The use of social media in the same fashion as telephonic or other forms of communication needs to be addressed at some point.
 
I don't agree with what he was doing, but it's a small step from punishing a blatant asshole to punishing legitimate political speech and criticism. They could have just blocked him and that would have been the end of that. But now they are trying to create defacto blasphemy laws here.
 
Nothing Cali does, or ever will do, will shock me after misdemeanor HIV.

I fully expect this man to get prison time.
 
I think the litigation is fine. That's not to say I think the individual should be convicted of a misdemeanor. The use of social media in the same fashion as telephonic or other forms of communication needs to be addressed at some point.


Why? Folks are already banned/removed from the various social media outlets as it is . . . why get more government involved in crap like this?

If a person is so touchy that they can't ignore crap on social media maybe they should seek help . . .
 
Why? Folks are already banned/removed from the various social media outlets as it is . . . why get more government involved in crap like this?

If a person is so touchy that they can't ignore crap on social media maybe they should seek help . . .

They are seeking help. They are seeking to find out if the same protections that already apply to telephone communication also apply to social media communication.

The 1950's parallel to your statement is "If a person is so touchy that they can't ignore crap on their telephones maybe they should seek help." The "just ignore it" argument already lost. That's why the FTC enforces "do not call" registries.
 
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