Positioning and what it means to you - Pt. 1:
- Thread starter Sinister
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Hey Liu, et al,
I find this to be a very rich and fascinating subject and one that I have been reflecting upon very deeply recently.
Before proceeding into the various aspects which culminates good positioning, I urge us to think critically about why we do things in the first place. That said, I also believe that from standpoint of a thinking fighter, which is a strategic point of view, one must always strive to become more aware of all of the available advantages and how we can instill those advantages into our craft. One should have a deliberate reason for doing anything in boxing.
Circling is one of the main aspects of good positioning in boxing. In a squared-ring you must move in a circle or arc to enable you to move constantly without having to stop and reset by getting caught on the ropes or in a corner. However, simply moving in a circle does not automatically translate into good ring-generalship. By circling just enough, you're constantly keeping yourself slightly out of range, thereby forcing your opponent to come forward, attempting to maintain his punching distance. This diminishes their possible leads (i.e. stepping/lunging- jabs, rights, hooks; no uppercuts), reduces their punch-output (no combination-punching), and also making them apt to reach with their punches.
Controlling the center of the ring is a key advantage. A boxer possessing the center of the ring will usually need to circle in a smaller arc than their opponent. That means the opponent will at times have to work harder in an attempt to keep up, and thus will become more prone to getting out of position.
This is all in contrast to the fast-paced, running approach of circling. Both ways accomplish the same thing (making you hard to hit), but by moving just enough, you expend very little energy in comparison to the guy running laps. What’s interesting about Burley as well as Benton mentioned earlier, is their upper body movement in combination with their footwork. They move around the ring, but not so fast that they aren’t always set. This means that, through this, they can use the ring while still maintaining an ability to move their upper body. This made them infuriatingly difficult to hit, something you’ll hardly see Ray Robinson/Leonard or Ali doing because they're moving too fast to be set enough to perform these movements.
An important consideration about circling is that you cut the distance by creating an angle to your opponent. Suppose your opponent jabs first, and you circle left (even in a small arc) and jab, you’ll beat them to the punch. That’s because you cut the distance, while your opponent who isn’t facing you as directly has a greater distance overcome. In Dadia’s interview with Connor he said the same thing about an exchange of left hooks. That is if you move right and hook, and your opponent doesn’t first adjust before throwing his lead hook, yours will land no matter how tight your opponent’s is.
Generally when boxing (assuming they are standing orthodox), your lead foot will be roughly in line with the center of their body, and theirs with yours. You should always make sure your eyes are wide open and both are constantly trained on your opponent. Keep your left foot real close to his, so your body is off to his left. This makes him step left, in order to have an angle to land his jab/right hand, but then, instead of him moving around your right hand, it moves him into it. It also makes it easier for you to slip outside his left jab, turn him back on his feet, and allow you to land a "profile" right hand.
You want to get your opponents to overextend themselves and then walk them into punches. This in turn makes things more predictable and thus sets the table for counterpunching.
The old conventional stance (See above photo), also deliberately reinforces the aspect of making the opponent reach. That’s Tommy Loughran pictured above, who’s one of most cunning and methodical fighters who ever lived. Tommy’s weight is shaded over his right leg, shoulders back; this adds a little extra distance that an opponent has to overcome to get to his head. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. So that you can lean just away or under from jabs, left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance— you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches.
Tactically fighters may at times use a wider stance (or widen it) as a starting point and a means to deceive their opponent’s gauge of distance. That is that they may lure their opponent forward by narrowing their stance by retreating to the rear foot, or making themselves seem closer by advancing the rear foot toward the front. There is an episode of The Way We Were with Joe Walcott and Joe Louis. They show on the screen the knock down Walcott gave Louis in their second fight and Walcott says that he was leaning away knowing that he would pull Louis' jab enough to able to throw his right hand over it. Jimmy Bivins, a former opponent of Walcott’s once said this about the Walcott’s use of this tactic:
“Walcott, Bivins said, had a frustrating technique he employed to get you to step forward as he connected with his right. Joe somehow moved his body in a manner that gave the appearance to his opponent that he was starting to back up, when all he was really doing was shifting his weight...Bivins stated that when you would begin to take that initial step forward upon seeing this, Walcott would crack you with the right. It was unexpected, and walking into the punch made it hurt even worse.”
This tactic was also used a lot by Max Schmelling against Joe Louis, and you could see that featured by Charlie Burley as well. This ability to “pull” opponents is enabled by the stance that these fighters share. This is something that is impossible with squared-up stances.
Finally I’d like to touch upon how to stay in position, and for that matter how to become less prone to getting faked out of position. I already talked about how your lead toe should always be pointed toward the center of your opponent’s body. Otherwise it makes it makes it harder to keep both eyes on your opponent which can cause blind spots. As for preventing yourself from getting feinted out of position, you need to stay on guard without committing to a movement. This excludes slipping, as slipping depends on the opponent’s tip-off’s (i.e. how they tip-off/begin their punches) and thus are vulnerable to feints. The default defense, one that is prevalent in the Eddie Futch lineage is catching and blocking and the natural counters than come off of them. Blocking based counters are not affected by feints as they are thrown after blocking. Hooks are naturally countered by hooks, and right hands are naturally countered by rights.
However, block-counters can also be countered once your opponent realizes that you ‘like’ doing it. For instance, when Barrera was fighting Marquez, he did was trying it almost all the damn time, that is until Marquez caught on and adapted using his left-hook to trigger the block-counter and land his right. This nullified Barrera’s tactic, who then out of ideas was left with jabbing and moving for the remainder.
The main thing to take away from all of this is to first improve your foundation so that you become efficient and do the right things innately and then remember that boxing is point and counterpoint. Any great fighter is man like you me, if one can become great then so can another.
I find this to be a very rich and fascinating subject and one that I have been reflecting upon very deeply recently.
Before proceeding into the various aspects which culminates good positioning, I urge us to think critically about why we do things in the first place. That said, I also believe that from standpoint of a thinking fighter, which is a strategic point of view, one must always strive to become more aware of all of the available advantages and how we can instill those advantages into our craft. One should have a deliberate reason for doing anything in boxing.
Circling is one of the main aspects of good positioning in boxing. In a squared-ring you must move in a circle or arc to enable you to move constantly without having to stop and reset by getting caught on the ropes or in a corner. However, simply moving in a circle does not automatically translate into good ring-generalship. By circling just enough, you're constantly keeping yourself slightly out of range, thereby forcing your opponent to come forward, attempting to maintain his punching distance. This diminishes their possible leads (i.e. stepping/lunging- jabs, rights, hooks; no uppercuts), reduces their punch-output (no combination-punching), and also making them apt to reach with their punches.
Controlling the center of the ring is a key advantage. A boxer possessing the center of the ring will usually need to circle in a smaller arc than their opponent. That means the opponent will at times have to work harder in an attempt to keep up, and thus will become more prone to getting out of position.
This is all in contrast to the fast-paced, running approach of circling. Both ways accomplish the same thing (making you hard to hit), but by moving just enough, you expend very little energy in comparison to the guy running laps. What’s interesting about Burley as well as Benton mentioned earlier, is their upper body movement in combination with their footwork. They move around the ring, but not so fast that they aren’t always set. This means that, through this, they can use the ring while still maintaining an ability to move their upper body. This made them infuriatingly difficult to hit, something you’ll hardly see Ray Robinson/Leonard or Ali doing because they're moving too fast to be set enough to perform these movements.
An important consideration about circling is that you cut the distance by creating an angle to your opponent. Suppose your opponent jabs first, and you circle left (even in a small arc) and jab, you’ll beat them to the punch. That’s because you cut the distance, while your opponent who isn’t facing you as directly has a greater distance overcome. In Dadia’s interview with Connor he said the same thing about an exchange of left hooks. That is if you move right and hook, and your opponent doesn’t first adjust before throwing his lead hook, yours will land no matter how tight your opponent’s is.
Generally when boxing (assuming they are standing orthodox), your lead foot will be roughly in line with the center of their body, and theirs with yours. You should always make sure your eyes are wide open and both are constantly trained on your opponent. Keep your left foot real close to his, so your body is off to his left. This makes him step left, in order to have an angle to land his jab/right hand, but then, instead of him moving around your right hand, it moves him into it. It also makes it easier for you to slip outside his left jab, turn him back on his feet, and allow you to land a "profile" right hand.
You want to get your opponents to overextend themselves and then walk them into punches. This in turn makes things more predictable and thus sets the table for counterpunching.
The old conventional stance (See above photo), also deliberately reinforces the aspect of making the opponent reach. That’s Tommy Loughran pictured above, who’s one of most cunning and methodical fighters who ever lived. Tommy’s weight is shaded over his right leg, shoulders back; this adds a little extra distance that an opponent has to overcome to get to his head. Standing hip and shoulder in front also allows you to lean with your upper body. So that you can lean just away or under from jabs, left hooks and right hands. In other words it lets you control distance— you can make your opponent's punches end up being just short of landing, thereby forcing him to commit more on his punches.
Tactically fighters may at times use a wider stance (or widen it) as a starting point and a means to deceive their opponent’s gauge of distance. That is that they may lure their opponent forward by narrowing their stance by retreating to the rear foot, or making themselves seem closer by advancing the rear foot toward the front. There is an episode of The Way We Were with Joe Walcott and Joe Louis. They show on the screen the knock down Walcott gave Louis in their second fight and Walcott says that he was leaning away knowing that he would pull Louis' jab enough to able to throw his right hand over it. Jimmy Bivins, a former opponent of Walcott’s once said this about the Walcott’s use of this tactic:
“Walcott, Bivins said, had a frustrating technique he employed to get you to step forward as he connected with his right. Joe somehow moved his body in a manner that gave the appearance to his opponent that he was starting to back up, when all he was really doing was shifting his weight...Bivins stated that when you would begin to take that initial step forward upon seeing this, Walcott would crack you with the right. It was unexpected, and walking into the punch made it hurt even worse.”
This tactic was also used a lot by Max Schmelling against Joe Louis, and you could see that featured by Charlie Burley as well. This ability to “pull” opponents is enabled by the stance that these fighters share. This is something that is impossible with squared-up stances.
Finally I’d like to touch upon how to stay in position, and for that matter how to become less prone to getting faked out of position. I already talked about how your lead toe should always be pointed toward the center of your opponent’s body. Otherwise it makes it makes it harder to keep both eyes on your opponent which can cause blind spots. As for preventing yourself from getting feinted out of position, you need to stay on guard without committing to a movement. This excludes slipping, as slipping depends on the opponent’s tip-off’s (i.e. how they tip-off/begin their punches) and thus are vulnerable to feints. The default defense, one that is prevalent in the Eddie Futch lineage is catching and blocking and the natural counters than come off of them. Blocking based counters are not affected by feints as they are thrown after blocking. Hooks are naturally countered by hooks, and right hands are naturally countered by rights.
However, block-counters can also be countered once your opponent realizes that you ‘like’ doing it. For instance, when Barrera was fighting Marquez, he did was trying it almost all the damn time, that is until Marquez caught on and adapted using his left-hook to trigger the block-counter and land his right. This nullified Barrera’s tactic, who then out of ideas was left with jabbing and moving for the remainder.
The main thing to take away from all of this is to first improve your foundation so that you become efficient and do the right things innately and then remember that boxing is point and counterpoint. Any great fighter is man like you me, if one can become great then so can another.
Very interesting post. I'm not gonna quote the whole thing cause it's too big, just the parts I'd like to respond to.
Yes, excellent! I think positioning fits into 3 broad categories: positioning within your stance (basically your body mechanics) positioning relative to your opponent (infinitely more complex) and positioning relative to the ring/cage. All of those things overlap of course. But there's so much to learn about each aspect of positioning, as was said before it really IS boxing. Controlling the center is a great example of positioning.
Yes, excellent! I think positioning fits into 3 broad categories: positioning within your stance (basically your body mechanics) positioning relative to your opponent (infinitely more complex) and positioning relative to the ring/cage. All of those things overlap of course. But there's so much to learn about each aspect of positioning, as was said before it really IS boxing. Controlling the center is a great example of positioning.
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Posture, pressure, possibilities.
http://www.caneprevost.com/2011/03/10/posture-pressure-possibilities-model/
I learnt it in a grappling context. It's applicable in boxing too.
http://www.caneprevost.com/2011/03/10/posture-pressure-possibilities-model/
I learnt it in a grappling context. It's applicable in boxing too.
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This is at the center of my partner drills. The catch-and-shoot philosophy, which is also something Mike stressed. However, knowing the vulnerability to being timed and tricked, that's why I go the extra step of teaching students the evasive movement minus the catch. So they learn to manipulate distance in a matter of inches and can be...as you put it, infuriatingly difficult to hit. I like that phrasing.
Pretty interesting read. Grappling sports do tend to be ahead of striking in their emphasis on positioning.
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Positioning is where your feet are in relation to his. It's kind of like a waltz, there is an action-reaction dynamic to it. If I go here, he goes there. If he goes there, I go here, and so on and so forth. Pacquiao's second fight with Bradley is a good example, where he no longer solely relied on his strength and speed, but also in actual body mechanics and positioning.
Can you please elaborate on this part ?
I have seen something like that mentioned on this forum but not sure that I get the idea right.
Does that mean that you can make the opponent think\feel that you are at a different distance than you really are by just changing your stance to wider\narrower ?
When retreating to the rear leg, you actually do change the real distance from your opponent - so the opponent rightfully think that the distance became larger. What do I miss here ?
Nice Post Nagel
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Yes. I believe I can assist in envisioning this. When you look at these guys from the front you don't always perceive the depths they might be standing at. From the front a guy might look like his head is between his feet. But from the side you can better see that his head is over his rear foot, and a couple of inches further away than you initially thought. This is the main reason why skilled fighters tend to approach each other very cautiously.
It makes a lot of sense too. I mean we need break lights on cars to realize we're about to smash into the guy in front of us, of course we won't be able to tell exactly how far away the head of the guy in front of us is, especially if he's manipulating that sense of depth.
It's a good point, and something that you have to be aware of especially if you are keen on blocking rights on your shoulder. The reason we often get hit on our left kidney when we get under our shoulder like that is we tend to bring the arm in a bit too much. Your left hand ought to be resting on your solar plexus (belly) with your elbow then poking out over the ribs, obstructing a clear path to your left kidney. You also must remember that you don't have to turn all the way to the side, but rather just enough to let their right hands slide off of you. You don't need to be all the way sideways for this. Watch James Toney and how he makes those rights slide off him, he isn't totally sideways, but just enough.
Nagel said:
Fascinating post. Everything was clear except this part here can you or anyone else explain what is being said about by circling/moving on the outside diminishes the opponents attacks? I don't wanna be "that" guy but what if you're facing a bull type fighter that comes forward? Madaina/hatton come to mind . What should you be doing while circling the ring then?
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I understand you description, but the following is still unclear to me:
You decide on the distance to your opponent by looking at the upper body\shoulders level. So why the location of his head relative to his feet changes my judgement of distance ?
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I just now saw this.
Circling can make nightmares for forward-moving fighters. For one thing, in my opening posts Bleu avoided Jonathan's onslaughts by consistently stepping around him when he'd TRY to get very close quickly. Or just smothering it. However, stepping around an opponent tends to disarm attacks or at least, misdirect them. Most swarmers/brawlers do their best work if you're directly in front of them. But if you keep subtly stepping, you're moving their crosshairs. Depending on which direction you move, you render one of their guns inefficient. This is even if you're within striking distance. Some trainers also note to do this to "keep him off-balance"...what they mean by that is when you step they have to step to keep facing you (unless they know how to face you without stepping). So their feet don't get set to deliver maximum force. One of the fights that stuck out in my mind the most about a guy making another guy look shitty just by taking small steps was Spinks/Taylor. Spinks was a good boxer, but was slowing down at this point. He still gave Taylor fits because he wouldn't just stand there and get hit:
One thing to keep in mind though, is that Cory's positioning isn't all that good. Feet pointed in wrong directions sometimes, stepping with the wrong foot, and that's why HE didn't make much use of putting Taylor out of position.
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Great post! I never seen the Taylor/spinks fight I will watch it later. You are talking about watching spinks and not Taylor correct? Lol
Awesome!
Sinister, I will have to say where and how do you know as much as you do? LOL broad question but seriously, you know your craft and its fascinating. Being in boxing gyms over the years, trainers won't simply just tell you stuff like this you have to find out on your own. just wondering how YOU actually got so knowledged. Very interesting
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