Opinion Poll: Should all new guns be tracked cradle to grave?

[Paradigm]

No.

How 'bout you guys just start at limiting open carry so that folks can't walk around like Rambo, as a starter? That should not be a state issue. It's just common sense.

Tiny steps...

So it's the open carry guys doing all the shootings?

 

[Trotsky]

Or make felons on parole wear some kind of identifying mark on their clothing so they can be stopped and frisked. I bet it'll save at least one life.

Seems like the difference between registration of things versus registration of people is lost on you guys.

 

[hillelslovak87]

The entire point is to be armed against shit like government and their systems.

So fuck no

The arguments between James Madison and Southern, Slave owning states, particularly Patrick Henry and George Mason, saw it quite differently from you. In fact, Madison, assured these states that the specific wording (state, not nation or country) would allow for southern slave patrol militias, many of which men from 18 to 45 were required to serve in if called upon, to put down slave uprisings ad other such insurrections against the state.

To pretend this was about protecting the citizen's ability to fight the government, and not state suppression of slave riots and insurrections, I must say, is not supported by the deliberations of these men who framed the amendment. Southern states were afraid that northern abolitionist states would simply free slaves and absorb them into the militia, thus empowering them with weapons to put down slavery in other states.

 

[forum poster]

 

[Bamboozled]

The arguments between James Madison and Southern, Slave owning states, particularly Patrick Henry and George Mason, saw it quite differently from you. In fact, Madison, assured these states that the specific wording (state, not nation or country) would allow for southern slave patrol militias, many of which men from 18 to 45 were required to serve in if called upon, to put down slave uprisings ad other such insurrections against the state.

To pretend this was about protecting the citizen's ability to fight the government, and not state suppression of slave riots and insurrections, I must say, is not supported by the deliberations of these men who framed the amendment. Southern states were afraid that northern abolitionist states would simply free slaves and absorb them into the militia, thus empowering them with weapons to put down slavery in other states.

tl;dr

already been discussed adnauseam

 

[hillelslovak87]

tl;dr

already been discussed adnauseam

Nothing to offer. Gotcha.

 

[surrealworlds]

You could do away with the second amendment, implement mandatory gun registration, and make illegal possession a mandatory life sentence and you still wouldnt stop mass shootings.

That's what anti gun people dont seem to grasp.
Pandoras box is open. We have more guns than people. Unregistered guns. We have the technology and know how widely available to recreate guns in our garages. That knowledge cannot be stopped.

You want to stop mass shootings? Let's talk about that. You want to implement rediculous laws that will do nothing but waste tax dollars and time? Fuck no.

All of that is without even touching the 2nd amendment, defense against the government arguments that have been beaten to death.

 

[PlayswellwithLawnDarts]

It can’t. Once upon a time Indiana had UBC for all firearm transfers, after it held up people long enough, after the state dumped gobs of money into it and after it was found to be ineffective and unable to track guns that were used in crimes it was done away with.

The current tracking of firearms the ATF does can track from point of sale to point of sale, the manufacturer sells to a dealer, dealer sells to me, I sell gone to another dealer and it ends up in criminal hands, they can only trace from “criminal” to prior point of sale. It’s annoying when people say “you bought at a dealer and they registered it to you” nope. The only federal registry we have is the NFRTR which tracks NFA weaponry (SBR, SBS, DDs, MGs, silencers, AOWs) and the ONLY reason that has been held up as constitutional is because it is “dangerous or unusual” weaponry.

NFA also requires a class 3 tax stamp. An FBI background check. Informing the local law enforcement of your ownership. And the ability to have your residence raided if there is evidence of illegal activity.

 

[MMAisGod]

Slope is too slippery for me. In line with the "red flag laws" that are already being mishandled and abused. There's no counterargument to the fact that standard citizens are added additional hoops while being at risk of privacy violations, while criminals still criminal with the other 300 million guns out there.

 

[shockaholic12]

How about we register, monitor, and track anyone with a mental health issue?

Suddenly registries are not so cool, eh?

So you want universal health care.

 

[shockaholic12]

Slope is too slippery for me. In line with the "red flag laws" that are already being mishandled and abused. There's no counterargument to the fact that standard citizens are added additional hoops while being at risk of privacy violations, while criminals still criminal with the other 300 million guns out there.

The counter argument would be the lack of regulations is what lead to the millions upon millions of guns floating around and the ease of which one can find them on black market. This “the system we have in place has already created this huge problem so....better give up and just stick with it” was never a sound argument to me.

 

[MMAisGod]

The counter argument would be the lack of regulations is what lead to the millions upon millions of guns floating around and the ease of which one can find them on black market. This “the system we have in place has already created this huge problem so....better give up and just stick with it” was never a sound argument to me.

That doesn't change reality. You could literally make every gun "illegal" right now today, and criminals will still criminal exactly the same, while you or I would have difficulties in obtaining a gun, and having one for protection. Mexico has some of the strictest gun policies in the world, and it, well, let's just say criminals still criminal. Outside of outright ineffectiveness, I point to the current implementation of Red Flag Laws as an example of how invasive and mismanaged this direction can lead if amplified. Not the future I'm trying to sign up for misrepresented in the name of moral demand.

The system isn't a problem at all. The sooner we accept that there's nothing we can do to stop criminals from killing people in a "register/restrict/ban" guns way the better.

 

[HockeyBjj]

I do. That's an even less popular idea than a registry, but I think far more sound philosophically. The right to self defense inferred from the second amendment is just made-up bullshit, though good made-up bullshit. When possible, it's good to have bedrock rights be bedrock things. There's nothing more inherent to American life than the right to keep ourselves and families safe. That should be enumerated.

As far as the legally allowable means to defend ourselves, that is a political choice based on factors like technology, utility, effect on others, and many other considerations. Today, we can't force people to always defend themselves with only their knuckles, and we can't allow them to defend themselves with rocket launchers. It's a matter of making the right choice. At this point, the choice has to involve a gun because that's the only tool that levels the field for vulnerable people. That may not always be true, that we'll need the right to make metal go into people's bodies at sonic speeds. But it will always be true that we should have a right to defend ourselves.

Don't worry @HockeyBjj I fully expect you'll forget this again and drop more brainless shitposts of the same sort, probably at the goading of a mentally ill stalker. I'll explain it to you patiently again in another six months or so.

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's a flawed and twisted premise you're conjuring as a way for you to feel you get your desired goal of eventually gun banning, while thinking you have an intellectual upper hand via keeping the "reason" for the 2nd amendment in tact.

Except the 2nd amendment wasn't written for someone to protect themselves and their family. It was written so that the people have the weapons they need should we ever have to go 1775 again. This is why arms was used, so that the weapons needed could evolve with time.

 

[Sketch]

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's a flawed and twisted premise you're conjuring as a way for you to feel you get your desired goal of eventually gun banning, while thinking you have an intellectual upper hand via keeping the "reason" for the 2nd amendment in tact.

Except the 2nd amendment wasn't written for someone to protect themselves and their family. It was written so that the people have the weapons they need should we ever have to go 1775 again. This is why arms was used, so that the weapons needed could evolve with time.

You can tell he doesn't argue this in good faith. Between calling guns 'Literal human murdering machines' etc, it's clear as night and day he wants a registry as the first step in the eventual goal of banning guns outright. I feel silly for initially agreeing with him and voting yes to this, only to have him troll outright a few posts into the thread and then go with his go to of calling me a 'mentally ill stalker'

The major issue these gun grabbers and people don't get is that we have the 2nd amendment for the exact reason you stated above. It's a form of protection against the government and allows an extra layer of freedom to the citizens.

 

[LMP]

I would say the majority of people can be trusted to own a firearm. The problem if we say 20% of the population shouldnt be trusted. That is a lot of people. 64 million people, being able to purchase firearms that shouldnt be able to have a gun.

Really if we want to make changes we need to add an amendment. This would end the construction issues. However I doubt an amendment would pass anytime soon.

A couple of things I think we could do. Make mandatory back ground checks on all firearm sales. Sure you will still have illegal sales, but if someone refused to do the check, it would send up a red flag to responsible gun owners. I believe these background checks should be free for private sales.

End the war on drugs. We lock up way too many people on felony charges here in America. We create so many life long criminals with how our justice system is set up.

Take mental health seriously. It is often very hard and expensive to get quality mental health care in this country. We need to be able to identify and treat people that are threats to the public as early as possible. We sit here after the fact and point out all the warning sign that mass shooters have shown, yet we do nothing to actually address these issues in the future.

 

[Fawlty]

I understand what you're saying, I just think it's a flawed and twisted premise you're conjuring as a way for you to feel you get your desired goal of eventually gun banning, while thinking you have an intellectual upper hand via keeping the "reason" for the 2nd amendment in tact.

Except the 2nd amendment wasn't written for someone to protect themselves and their family. It was written so that the people have the weapons they need should we ever have to go 1775 again. This is why arms was used, so that the weapons needed could evolve with time.

I can't really help your historical misunderstandings, but I can be honest and explain things despite you being a completely retarded twat about it (the premise is not flawed or twisted). Like I said, I'll explain again months from now, when you forget and start chewing your shirtsleeves again.

 

[HockeyBjj]

I can't really help your historical misunderstandings, but I can be honest and explain things despite you being a completely retarded twat about it (the premise is not flawed or twisted). Like I said, I'll explain again months from now, when you forget and start chewing your shirtsleeves again.

It's cute how you think you're somehow right about this

 

[zebby23]

Shall not be infringed

Constitution can and has been changed.

 

[all caps]

Sure are a lot of Americans who hate freedom. Sad really, what the world has done to yall.

 

[I am your real dad]

LiTeRaLlY

Don't worry, I'd make sure Democrats get to keep theirs. I'm only confiscating from Republicans.

Nooooooooo!!!!!!!!